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Thread: Help with possible metal problem

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    Help with possible metal problem

    Hi, I opened up 3 weeks ago and have not been able to get rid of a brilliant lime green water. Shocked pool with liquid chlorine, run filter 24/7, consistently backwash. Flocked, clarified, algaecide, sequestered, used DE in the filter to catch much finer particulate. My pool rep says there is no algae left in the pool, to look in the direction of minerals. Suggestions or recommendations? Thanks very much

    current conditions:
    PH 8
    TA 100
    CL .5
    CYA 75
    Calcium 80
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metel problem

    Hello Kimberly and welcome to TFP! Metals? ... Certainly a possibility, especially when on well water or in more rural areas. Some of the chemicals you added earlier could also add to that metal content. But I bet the pool store didn't tell you about that in advance. No worries, we'll try to help. A few things to help get us started:
    - Please confirm how you got those test results (TF-100, Taylor K-2006)?
    - Can you upload a pic of your water please? If you're not sure how to upload a photo or link one from Photobucket please let us know.
    - What type and how much sequestrant did you use ... if you remember.

    In the meantime, also consider reviewing the TFP Pool School - Metals in the Water and Metal Stains page. There's some really good info there.

    Nice to have you with us.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Re: Help with possible metel problem

    First let me say we feel like scientists experimenting with a project!

    We have the T-2005C kit. Last year, we had the same problem but we gave up and just covered it back up. This year, we did our typical pool opening. When the cover came off, the water was dirty but clear and you could easily see the bottom. We skimmed, cleaned, filtered to waste etc and began the steps we have done in the previous years but things were going exactly as they had last year. The water was no longer clear, you couldn't see beyond the first step and the water was a thick brown/green. We added algaecide and all that did was create a green foam that skimmed out to leave what we began to refer to as, "square one or B2S1". We watched youtube videos trying to find ones that looked similar to our problem and used a green to blue pool shock but that did the same thing, it created a green foam that would quickly cover the pool in about an hour. It would skim out and we would B2S1. We stumbled across this forum and began reading about slamming and decided that since our pH and TA were in perfect levels but our CL was either clear or slightly tinted, we weren't keeping our chlorine levels up enough to kill what we assumed was algae.

    Fast forward 30 to 40 bottles of clorox later, vacuuming, filtering, backwashing so much that we were getting up in the middle of the night to backwash, testing chlorine levels at bedtime and sunrise to see if we were losing chlorine another way besides from the sun and reaching the conclusion that we should just drain the swamp and start over or call in a professional.. which we hated to do because we feared we would be sold chemicals we didn't need and end up B2S1. However, we did have our water tested and they essentially matched what we had except for the chlorine. We registered no chlorine or very low.

    Here are his results:

    FC 7.61
    TC 7.61
    CC 0
    pH 7.6
    TA 103
    Calcium hardness 111
    CYA 25
    Copper .1
    Iron 0
    Manganese 0
    Nitrates 0
    TDS 425
    Phosphates 0
    Saturation index .1

    On his suggestion we added: Bioguard Natural Clarifier, Bioguard Banish and Pool first aid
    After 24 hours we were to bring in another water sample but guess what, we were.... B2S1

    He suggested a number of options both chemical and water-sourced. We started looking at adding DE and when we stopped to pick up a bag, we explained our plight and purchased 2L of N Jonas Vertrol Plus. We are B2S1 again. The liner is now stained at the water line. The Vertrol is heavier than the water so it creates a large impact circle when it lands on the steps, where we poured some to see what it did on the particles. They turn brown.

    We do have city water, it's not a well-fed source. The photo is to show the color of the water. The debris is what we kept getting after chlorinating. We no longer get that but the color is the same.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by kimberly928; 06-13-2016 at 02:12 PM. Reason: forgot something
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Well, that is no doubt a nuclear-colored green. I will say this, too many chemicals have been added to that beauty. You folks have been "pool stored" beyond belief, and I bet they will be more than happy to see you return tomorrow if needed to sell you something else. Let's slow-down and go over a few basic concepts for you all:
    - Generally, a pool turns green for one of two reasons - algae or metals. Yours looks to be metals as it has such a transparent/bright color to it.
    - Water testing is okay with your 2005 kit, but you need to augment it with THIS PART as well. That's very important.
    - We generally don't place much value on pool store testing, although we will at times suggest having the water tested for metals. You did that, but was the sample from the pool? If so, it's probably no good because the metal has already precipitated out from the chlorine and skews the results. When that happens, the metal reacts with the chlorine and begins to look for a new home (i.e. your liner). I would suggest having the "source" tested (from the hose). In the end though, I am almost sure some metals were added from some of those pool store products - especially the algaecides that add copper.
    - Based on this pic I am fearful that you will need to exchange some water. Sorry. Those test results above don't really help us too much, but you said your 2005 kit was almost identical (except for FC & CC). That color you have is not from algae. Algae can be cleared by managing the proper chlorine (FC) and stabilizer (CYA) ratio. It works! ..... but not for metal. Even a good sequestrant has its limitations, and I suspect yours is beyond that.

    This is one time where I personally have no problems recommending an immediate water exchange - as much as you can do but leaving at least 12" in the bottom and/or do not drain below the lowest step. After that, I have no doubt we can show you how to manage your pool very simply the TFP way. I encourage you to spend some time on the vital links you see below in my sig, and please order either a complete TF-100 test kit or at a minimum, the FAS-DPD portion from the link I provided above to augment your current K-2005 equivalent. Please stay out of the pool store at all costs. The last hunk of $$ you should spend should be to the water company just to start fresh, because with TFP you'll save much more than you would imagine based on what you've done so far.

    You Kimberly, are one forum member that has my sympathy for what you have gone through. Now it's time we fix that for you once and for all.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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  5. Back To Top    #5

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Yes! We also have a Taylor K-2009 kit.
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    The K-2006 test kit is a very reliable product. If anything, you may need to add more reagents later is all. But the color/tint of that water just screams "metal" to me. I'll ask some others to take a peek as well to make sure I'm not imaging things. Almost has a radiator fluid look to it doesn't it?
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    I'm assuming Vetrol Plus is chlorine?

    Turning brown usually indicates iron. But with all the bio-crud products/Algaecides etc. and possible ingredients combining it will be hard to pinpoint what kind of reaction has gone on here.

    Is your cya at 75 because you're running swg?

    I think that a partial water change makes sense before going further, particularly if you're not running swg and don't need your cya that high.

    Next, get that ph down to 7.2 -- it wil help if its metal, or have you ready to slam if you need to SLAM - which I'm not yet ruling out.

    I would still do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to absolutely rule out organics first (because if you're wrong, you will have wasted the product I'm going to suggest by further slamming.)

    If you pass the OCLT and your FC/cc seem normal in terms of daily consumption, I'd the try a full start up dose of specifically one of the two HEDP-based sequestrants tfp recommends...Metal Magic by proteam if not swg, or Jacks Purple if you are running SWG.

    See if that changes the tint. If its metal, it should.
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Your test result shows .1 copper. The only way to get rid of the copper is to drain and refill the pool with copper free water. Copper comes from algaecides that contain copper, and mineral systems such as the Pool Frog. Degraded copper heat exchangers and degraded copper pipes can also be a source of copper, but that is very rare.

    Since your water was swampy when you opened it is likely you had algae and copper in the water, now the algae is gone and you are left with the copper problem. Sequestrants can move the copper back into solution and clear the water if you use enough. You also have to maintain the sequestrant with regular additions to prevent the copper from falling out of solution again.

    It may be easier to drain and refill. If you do choose to drain and refill, do not drain 100% of your pool at once. That may damage your vinyl liner. Always leave at least 1 foot of water in the shallow end of the pool. If you notice the sides of the pool starting to look "puffy" stop draining and refill the pool.

    If you decide to try the sequestrant, keep the pH around 7.0-7.2, this also helps keep the copper in solution.
    TFP Moderator
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Vertrol plus is a sequestrant. We added 1 quart per 10K gallon. We also added DE. We did this first because we have learned that if you dump a bunch of chemicals in and you get a result, you have no idea which chemical did the result. So we ran the filter with DE and watch the pressure to get an idea of what it was doing and backwashed a lot. Then added the Vertrol the next day. Attachment 50166
    As you can see from the picture, we are back to square one. I think reight now we are just trying to do something else for a day or two so that we can come back to the pool with refocused energy. Do people go insane from owning a pool?IMG_0895.JPG
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Go insane? ..... Never. Unfortunately you folks were given some very bad advice and sold some products from the pool store that should never have been used. It complicated your water chemistry, cost you valuable time, and certainly lots of green $$$. We hope to change that. Unfortunately, the amount of products added to your pool may be so much that a partial drain will be required. What I'd like for you to consider is a fairly healthy water exchange before trying to add any more chemicals and waste money. We already know you have "some" metal in the water, we just don't' know how much. We also don't want the metal to continue to precipitate out to the pool surfaces and cause staining, so the quicker you can exchange the water the better.

    Your last recorded CYA was about 75 or so. That's a bit high for a non-SWG pool. So the water exchange does a couple things for you - it lowers your CYA thereby reducing the required FC level (chlorine) and reduces the metal content in the water. Once you achieve that goal, managing water is quite easy. Just a little bleach each day and once in a while some muriatic acid perhaps.

    As you heard above, you could validate the presence (or lack of) algae by doing an OCLT, but if you have to "SLAM" to remove algae with metal in the water, there's a good chance the metal reaction will be the same or perhaps worse. Consider all the info provided and let us know how you would like to proceed and we'll do the best we can to help.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    I did run an OCLT and the FC stayed the same overnight. Also, the second water test we had done showed zero algae. We are able to get the water absolutely perfect.. if you like green hair.
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    ha ha. Well, at least you ruled-out algae so you know it's metal.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    kimberly,

    Once you decide to fix your pool, it can be done right here. You must be able to jump in with both feet. Get your K-2005 upgraded so you can provide good test results. How old is the K-2005?

    Second, you must stay out of the pool store that advice is very close to stealing.

    So, the choice is yours to make but if you make the decision to upgrade as Texas Splash has suggested and you post good test results from YOUR tests, we can get your pool crystal clear.

    Until you make that decision to jump in, there is not much we can do.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    Just an update, we are finishing up draining the pool and cleaning the sides. I'm assuming we refill and start the process again? Before we refill, I'm wanting to make sure we get as much staining off as possible. IMAG1858.jpg
    By just scrubbing good, so far, we have been able to remove the dark stains and since we are replacing the liner after this season (Yes, I know, we'll be draining this puppy again in just a few short months but we want to be victorious first), we just want to be able to enjoy the pool and we don't care if there are some slight discolorations.

    So.... what do you suggest we do, once we are ready to refill?
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    It's good that you can use this liner as your Guinea pig before the replacement. If I recall, your metal problem was primarily due to those pool store products, so as long as you don't add any more of that junk you should be okay. After you drain the pool and clean the liner to your satisfaction, begin filling it back up. Once it is almost full, start soaking the granular stabilizer (white sock) for an initial CYA target of 30. On day 1, increase FC to 3 ppm with bleach, then after that when your stabilizer is all dissolved increase FC to about 4-5. Your pH should always by around 7.5-7.7, no higher than 7.8.

    Now might be a good time to do a deep cleaning on your filter to remove any of that pool store stuff as well. Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    You're making that sound super easy. Granular stabilizer - should it be 100% cya? Brand? Baby step us please!!
    20 x 40 vinyl lined inground chlorine 27000 gal. no heater, Hayward 244T(new zeosand) filter with a Hayward 2hp superpump.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Help with possible metal problem

    To increase CYA via granular stabilizer, place the required amount as calculated by the Poolmath calculator into a white sock and place in the poolside skimmer basket. For those concerned about suction flow to the pump, suspending the sock near a return jet or from a floating device will also suffice. Best never to allow undissolved granules to rest directly against the pool surface. Squeeze the sock periodically to help it dissipate. Once dissolved, consider your CYA adjusted to that programmed (target) level. CYA test readings should show a rise in 24-48 hours, however some pools may experience a longer delay to fully register. Best to confirm final CYA in about 5-7 days before adding any more stabilizer/conditioner.
    You can get stabilizer and most Wal-Marts (HTH brand), Lowe's or Home Depot pool sections. It's usually in a 4 lb plastic bottle for around $16 or so and simply called "Stabilizer". Some may say "Conditioner", but has the same active ingredient should be "Cyanuric Acid". The closer to 100% the better, but they are generally around 97% or so I think. Hope that helps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Some places sell liquid conditioner (same thing) only much more expensive as a liquid. So we generally recommend the granules to save money.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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