main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

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Many pools with in-floor cleaners do not have standard returns because they are somewhat redundant. However, they are useful if you don't want to use the in-floor for some reason.

I believe the water valve spec is for 20 PSI. How much pressure does the gauge show on the valve and on the filter?
 
provia, does having your filter on when you have a pool party keep the pool from getting green? if not, what is the purpose of having it on when there is a pool party? cleanliness in general, to be rotating out the water? there is a lever on the water valve but I thought it was a lever to take off the lid. It is attached to a metal piece that wraps around the valve, I think. I'll have to look more closely at it.

I was talking with the pool company today and they were going to send someone out until I told them I also need to schedule to get the DE filter cleaned so we can record how to do it so we know how to put it back together next time. at least that's what they suggested saying people have a hard time putting them back together. pb got to thinking and she said that could be why my heads are stuck and that i should leave the pop ups on as usual but schedule a DE filter cleaning first before having the infloor looked at to see if it resolves the prob. She said we should've cleaned the DE filter half a year ago. We got the pool in June and I was pretty sure they said to do it once a year and the warranty person is saying every 4-6 mths.

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mas 985, good to know about the returns. we might want to get a vac one day for after dust storms or if the infloors truly never end up working well. i'll have to check the psi in the morn and let u know. thx!

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mas985, i'll check the valve psi in the morn. good to know about the returns. i guess it's good we have them esp if we ever want to get a vac by giving up on the infloor or after a dust storm or something...
 
Many of us have a water feature (shear descent, waterfall, fountain, etc.) that we want on during parties. And it does help with skimming the surface and filtering too.

As for the water turning green, that's almost always NOT a filtering issue, it's a chemical balance issue. If your water is turning green, you don't have enough chlorine in the water and are probably at the beginning of an algae outbreak. I don't recall, what testkit are you using to test with?

Have a look at the link in my previous post to see the exact location of the pause/run lever. It's on the very top center of the dome. The knob on the side attached to the metal band is to remove the dome lid to get to the internal parts of the water distribution valve. You can always take a picture of that water valve and post here for us to see.

The cleaning system heads should cycle even with low water flow. When my VS pump is running at 1100 rpm, my valve still rotates through all zones - the heads don't fully pop up do to the low flow, but i can definitely see a bit of water coming out of them. For cleaning, I use about 2800-2900 rpm - which seems to work well for my setup. Of course, every setup is different.....

Cleaning your filter isn't needed on a set TIME frame. Most of us clean/backwash when our filter pressure rises 20-25% above clean pressure. However, since you haven't done yours in a year, it may be a good idea. Just make sure to remember your clean pressure right after it's done - as that will be your baseline to determine when you should next clean/backwash it.
 
azjoshers79
yes, I'm local, in the older part of Ahwatukee. I'll PM you for the info. That sounds great! the pb told me if the pool isn't clean within 24 hrs after running at high speed to call them to take a look at the in-floor heads. I'm thinking I need to brush it and not just wait for it to do its thing. Even though we haven't dove into the tfp method yet I read that one part of the SLAM is to brush it daily, so may as well. I also want the pool company to see that their system isn't cleaning, though if that's the case. when I looked at it after having run for several hours after the DE filter was cleaned it had that starburst effect that another pb who didn't believe in selling in-floors told me about. maybe when it's gone through a few cycles it'll look better.

anyone know how long it takes to run a full in-floor cycle? Forgive me if this was already answered. It takes me a while to remember all of the details.
 
Hi outdoorsgal,

I have a Paramount Vanquish system in my pool. I think it uses the same main drain as your system. I've had the pool and cleaning system for 3 years, and up until just recently the system has worked perfectly (after I tweaked it). Currently my main drain is plugged and I'm waiting for the PB to blow it out.

What I found with my system was that the magnetic safety release on the cap of the debris container was opening under normal pump pressure.
Does your cap in the canister look like this?

mvfuse.JPG


If it does, you should perform the following test, cover the inlet next to the main drain with your hand and see if the water level above the cap lowers. If it does then you know that either the fuse is set too low or water is getting in where the cap joins the container. Of course if the drain is actually blocked, this test won't work.

What I ended up doing on my system was purchasing a closed cap and gasket (this bypasses a safety release mechanism, so please be aware that you will only have one safety release if you purchase this!).

lid.JPG

I had to modify the notches by cutting them so it would fit my canister.

Please let us know your progress with the main drain and good luck!
 
RIRSZ said:
Hi outdoorsgal,

I have a Paramount Vanquish system in my pool. I think it uses the same main drain as your system. I've had the pool and cleaning system for 3 years, and up until just recently the system has worked perfectly (after I tweaked it). Currently my main drain is plugged and I'm waiting for the PB to blow it out.

What I found with my system was that the magnetic safety release on the cap of the debris container was opening under normal pump pressure.
Does your cap in the canister look like this?

View attachment 50222


If it does, you should perform the following test, cover the inlet next to the main drain with your hand and see if the water level above the cap lowers. If it does then you know that either the fuse is set too low or water is getting in where the cap joins the container. Of course if the drain is actually blocked, this test won't work.

What I ended up doing on my system was purchasing a closed cap and gasket (this bypasses a safety release mechanism, so please be aware that you will only have one safety release if you purchase this!).

View attachment 50223

I had to modify the notches by cutting them so it would fit my canister.

Please let us know your progress with the main drain and good luck!
Click to expand...

George, I'm a bit confused. I thought I've been told to shut off the pump before I open the debris canister. did u take the top off with the pump on or off and then turn the pump on with the lid off? my lid looks like the bottom pic. have the pool running right now so I didn't take the lid off to see if I have anything like the top pic but I don't recall having anything that looks like that. If your top pic is what u had and bottom pic is what u have now, I have what u have now. sorry i'm confused about this one. glad to hear of another person that likes infloor, though! :)
 
I have an in-floor cleaning system, and I'm 100% happy with it...especially after I invested serious time and energy in truly understanding the theory and mechanics of how it is supposed to be working. In my system, I have a dedicated pump that does nothing other than intake water from the pool and then shoot it out through the floor jets. This loop is independent of my filtration loop, which has a different pump that takes water through my filter and back to the pool.

When I was building my pool, it seemed to me that this was a really expensive way to go about plumbing the floor cleaning system (why not use a variable-speed pump, etc.?), so I queried my pool builder (and subsequently Paramount) to make sure I wasn't getting charged for over-engineering. The response from both was the same: To work most effectively, in floor cleaners are designed by the manufacture with some relatively tight tolerances on back pressure and water flow. When you put a filter in the loop, you get some additional back pressure. You could compensate for this additional back pressure by providing more pumping power. However, we all know what filtration back pressure changes as the filter media start to get dirty, and the water flow rate is not a linear function of back pressure...especially through the floor nozzles. Consequently, any in-floor cleaner that does not use a dedicated pump will not operate consistently. From looking at OP's pictures, I did not see a dedicated pump. This is problem #1.

Problem #2 is the floor drain itself. The main drain is on the floor with a smaller pressure-relief drain on the sidewall. I have the same system. Even with my 1.5HP (with 1.4 SF) pump pulling solely from my floor drain(s), I can detect no visible flow at the floor drain. They have clearly designed these drains with the ultimate VGB compliance in mind! However, I know that it is working because I can see/feel/hear the water running through my return jets. These drains all by themselves are not meant to clean the floor...they are meant to gradually inhale dirt that gets pushed directly over top. That is why the in-floor jets need to be working at peak efficiency. Hence, my focus on Problem #1 above.

Problem #3 is the leaf canister. Whoever was explaining the difference between the 2 types of lids doesn't understand how this part of the system works. The clear plastic domed lid (which is the one I have) does not make a hermetic seal against the leaf canister basket--a significant amount of water still flow through this lid by design. In fact, if my leaf canister were to get completely plugged up, enough water can bypass this lid to keep the pump from running dry for a significant period of time. I do know, however, that if I do not have my lid installed correctly, I get a substantial bypass of my bottom drain.

So firstly, check that your leaf canister is functioning correctly and that the lid is installed correctly. Secondly, in the absence of a dedicated pump loop for your cleaning system, you can expect sub-par cleaning performance. And thirdly, the apparent absence of flow at floor drain means absolutely nothing. Good luck with your system.
 
JayBauman said:
I have an in-floor cleaning system, and I'm 100% happy with it...especially after I invested serious time and energy in truly understanding the theory and mechanics of how it is supposed to be working. In my system, I have a dedicated pump that does nothing other than intake water from the pool and then shoot it out through the floor jets. This loop is independent of my filtration loop, which has a different pump that takes water through my filter and back to the pool.

When I was building my pool, it seemed to me that this was a really expensive way to go about plumbing the floor cleaning system (why not use a variable-speed pump, etc.?), so I queried my pool builder (and subsequently Paramount) to make sure I wasn't getting charged for over-engineering. The response from both was the same: To work most effectively, in floor cleaners are designed by the manufacture with some relatively tight tolerances on back pressure and water flow. When you put a filter in the loop, you get some additional back pressure. You could compensate for this additional back pressure by providing more pumping power. However, we all know what filtration back pressure changes as the filter media start to get dirty, and the water flow rate is not a linear function of back pressure...especially through the floor nozzles. Consequently, any in-floor cleaner that does not use a dedicated pump will not operate consistently. From looking at OP's pictures, I did not see a dedicated pump. This is problem #1.

Problem #2 is the floor drain itself. The main drain is on the floor with a smaller pressure-relief drain on the sidewall. I have the same system. Even with my 1.5HP (with 1.4 SF) pump pulling solely from my floor drain(s), I can detect no visible flow at the floor drain. They have clearly designed these drains with the ultimate VGB compliance in mind! However, I know that it is working because I can see/feel/hear the water running through my return jets. These drains all by themselves are not meant to clean the floor...they are meant to gradually inhale dirt that gets pushed directly over top. That is why the in-floor jets need to be working at peak efficiency. Hence, my focus on Problem #1 above.

Problem #3 is the leaf canister. Whoever was explaining the difference between the 2 types of lids doesn't understand how this part of the system works. The clear plastic domed lid (which is the one I have) does not make a hermetic seal against the leaf canister basket--a significant amount of water still flow through this lid by design. In fact, if my leaf canister were to get completely plugged up, enough water can bypass this lid to keep the pump from running dry for a significant period of time. I do know, however, that if I do not have my lid installed correctly, I get a substantial bypass of my bottom drain.

So firstly, check that your leaf canister is functioning correctly and that the lid is installed correctly. Secondly, in the absence of a dedicated pump loop for your cleaning system, you can expect sub-par cleaning performance. And thirdly, the apparent absence of flow at floor drain means absolutely nothing. Good luck with your system.
Click to expand...

Hi Jay, thanks for your post. I'm the guy that doesn't understand how the system is supposed to work. I don't want to hi-jack this thread with minutia about the MPX-3 drain and debris canister, but thought I should point out to you that if your debris canister were to completely clog up, you will lose suction between the debris canister and your pump. That means water will no longer enter the "designed" gap in the canister lid because nothing is pulling it and it wouldn't have anywhere to go. If you get a clog between your main drain and the canister, then your scenario of the "designed" gap does make some sense. However, the amount of water that seeps through this "designed" gap is minimal and will still allow your pump to run dry. I'm not an engineer, but I do know that eliminating a leak in a vacuum will make the suction stronger, an example would be shutting off one of your skimmers makes the suction of the other one stronger. Also, I'd like to mention that I only have one pump on my system, and have yet to manually vacuum my pool, even after I take the cover off in the spring.
 
btw, now i found what looks like rust coming through on my step. I am going to have to have the pb take a look at that when they come out. i also see some discoloration of the pebble on the steps. i'm wondering if i never noticed it or if that's normal/something to look out for. it's whiter than the rest of the pool as if it's the plaster showing and not enough pebble was applied to the area or as if it's rubbing off or something. It's on the areas on the corners on the steps. after swimming season the pb also needs to touch up the grout on the tiles as there were lots of air bubbles and it never was sealed well so if i have to drain the pool at all for jobs and it won't cause probs i may as well have them do it all at the same time i'm thinking, unless anyone has anything different to say. pb builder told me that it made sense to wait until after the 2d season to fill in the tile grout so i'm hoping they'll be good about all the repairs still needed at this point, almost a year after building the pool, now. i had another issue with pebble initially and with the rebar coming through when the pool was new. i'm not thrilled to see that it's happening again and makes me wonder what'll happen years down the line. i already see a piece missing off of my Marbella coping, which seems to be a chip or something and I have a few stains on my Marbella patio-rust and some chalk got dropped on it and got wet. i'll have to see the if the chalk is still on it but the Marbella seems to soak u anything and that's after having spent $80 on sealer. so disappointed and will have to call the sealing company and see what they say. it was supposed to seal for 5 yrs in AZ but stained within a few mths. :(
 
outdoorsgal said:
btw, now i found what looks like rust coming through on my step. I am going to have to have the pb take a look at that when they come out. i also see some discoloration of the pebble on the steps. i'm wondering if i never noticed it or if that's normal/something to look out for. it's whiter than the rest of the pool as if it's the plaster showing and not enough pebble was applied to the area or as if it's rubbing off or something. It's on the areas on the corners on the steps. after swimming season the pb also needs to touch up the grout on the tiles as there were lots of air bubbles and it never was sealed well so if i have to drain the pool at all for jobs and it won't cause probs i may as well have them do it all at the same time i'm thinking, unless anyone has anything different to say. pb builder told me that it made sense to wait until after the 2d season to fill in the tile grout so i'm hoping they'll be good about all the repairs still needed at this point, almost a year after building the pool, now. i had another issue with pebble initially and with the rebar coming through when the pool was new. i'm not thrilled to see that it's happening again and makes me wonder what'll happen years down the line. i already see a piece missing off of my Marbella coping, which seems to be a chip or something and I have a few stains on my Marbella patio-rust and some chalk got dropped on it and got wet. i'll have to see the if the chalk is still on it but the Marbella seems to soak u anything and that's after having spent $80 on sealer. so disappointed and will have to call the sealing company and see what they say. it was supposed to seal for 5 yrs in AZ but stained within a few mths. :(
Click to expand...

Document anything you see that you have questions about. Take multiple pictures of the areas that concern you. Since the PB stated it makes more sense to wait until after the 2nd season to address any issues, have them put that in WRITING.

The white areas could be the start of scale - from not keeping the pH in check with acid additions as frequently as needed. If it's truly scale, that can be addressed after the SLAM is completed too.

While it may seem that a lot of items are piling up about the pool, please attempt to keep them somewhat separate. It will make resolving them so much easier in the long run.

Enjoy swimming this weekend!!! Brush, dose with liquid every day and watch for your test kit to arrive -- but mostly enjoy the pool!!!

EDIT:

One more minor item.... If you get out of the pool and can smell a faint "pool smell" on your skin, that's just the chlorine doing it's job to eliminate the sweat, dirt and other contaminants on your skin. Just rinse with the garden hose or shower to put yourself at ease.
 

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i can't believe how on top of this site you guys are. i was kicking back outside, cuz the breeze by the pool with the 100 degree weather isn't all that bad, while i get an email together for the pool company so that everything is in writing at least on my end. they haven't been so good about replying, wouldn't u know. i'll have to ask them to for sure. sorry for the delay. i'll check the chlorine now, then. i have one light out here that i fought with the pb to put in cuz my brother is an electrician in MASS and he looked up the codes and it's law for the pb to have put in an outlet by the pool, i think within 10 feet or something like that. Old news but i'm sure liking the light but it is a bit dark. post in a couples minutes
 
if i were only able to get the pool light to stay on white. anyone know how to do that on a hayward puck? i think i lack the patience and i keep pressing the light button and holding it down. it's not going to be easy with the lights switching colors.
 
just got an appt for the pop-ups for Friday morning. so, to get back to the original reason for my post: when people say their pop ups work, what does that mean? how long does it take, for example, for the pool to clean after a dust storm? what is left in the pool on a regular day like today after having run 4 hrs or whatever u set yours at. i've been brushing daily and pushing everything into the drain so i'll stop brushing now that the SLAM is done but even during the SLAM when i had my pump running on high for days on end I still brushed a lot of stuff into the drain. it especially seemed that way to me since I brushed at night a couple of times so u see all the flaws. my son must've had paper in his pocket and even that wasn't picked up by the next day until I brushed it all close to the drain.

those who say their in-floor works, how often do u brush and "help" the system. if u brush once a week, what's it look like by day 6? i always have some dirt on the floor around my drain. ALWAYS. i have some drip lines to bury next to the pool so i'm going to do it within the next couple of days so that if some dust/dirt gets in the pool we'll have a better gage to look at if it's picking stuff up or not. hoping for no dust storms before then, though cuz i'm sure they'll use that as an excuse. pb super said it could take a week to clean up a dust storm and it's not sounding like that's the experience of folks on this thread.

they are also going to schedule someone for discoloration on the steps and what appears to be rust coming through. I think i posted pics way back on page one or 2. it's hard to get a good pic of the "discoloration" which i'm probably not calling it the right word. when i look at it standing on the patio it looks like the pebble is rubbing off. when i look up close on the 6" baja shelf it looks like I had bad luck with all tan pebbles landing in the one area that is probably 3 inches by 10 inches. on the second step, it looks like the plaster is coming off from around the pebbles but when i feel it I can't tell a bit. the same issue is found on the bottom step, all on the corners/inside edges where the step meets the side wall of the pool.

the rust they won't be able to deny but the areas where it's more white than other areas in the pool i'm thinking they'll tell me it's natural stone and that's how it happened to get sprayed out of their spray gun and it's never going to be perfect and i should've caught it within 30 days after pool was built. i can live with it if it's strictly cosmetic but i don't want it getting worse if it is something that is rubbing off cuz that's the appearance it has; as if something's rubbing off.

since we got so off track of my original post in this thread, if i should start this in a new thread, now pls advice. i know i've already gotten a lot of advice on this topic so far but want to be more prepared with an understanding of how folk systems work. or is there something like this already posted? specifically wanting to know how clean is clean and how long that takes for people. i'm impressed and thankful with the amount of reading, time, dedication folks are giving to help.
thanku!
 
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