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Thread: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

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    main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    We have been disappointed with our in floor system since when we got the pool put in almost a year ago and my husband thinks the drain has no suction. I was told that the suction is inside the drain where we can't feel it since it's a safety feature. there is also a drain on the side of the pool. When we look in the drain there is dirt/sand in the bottom of the drain that either hasn't gotten sucked into the DE filter yet or it's taking a while. We just looked at it today for the first time. We've always complained about dirt sitting around the drain and never making it in the drain. My husband hand vacs the pool almost on a weekly basis. The pool company told us we had too much dirt in the backyard and it'd never be clean until we put in grass. Grass has been in since the winter and it still takes a while to get to the drain and I'd have to look, again, to see if it all ever gets to the drain. i don't think it's ever been crystal clear and Calpools agreed that there might always be a little bit of dirt on the bottom. i think i remember him saying once sand is too heavy but it will eventually make it to the filter. we have sandy/clay dirt so there's not much we can do about it not getting in the pool. He said the pipes would never get plugged but I want to make sure I am educated when we get them to come out as they keep saying it's fine and paramount won't come out until calpools does first and calpools said if it's a maintenance issue they'll charge us a service charge for the visit so i've never had them come out but we're thinking of it now. Also, to give me a good idea of how the in-floor works, they said after a dust storm if we just relied on the in-floor alone it might take a mth to clean it. i had no idea it was known to be that slow working on their side. what's this 99% clean warranty anyway?

    thanku!
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    1. Is the main drain plumbed through the skimmer or is it seperatly plumbed with a separate valve so you can control how much flow comes from the main drain vs the skimmer?

    2. Send your PB and the in floor system provider a certified letter telling them they have ten days to inspect and report to you on the infloor system otherwise you will hire a third party contractor to evaluate and repair the system and bill them for the cost.

    3. It doesn't matter if your backyard is sand the system should move the dirt. The problem is with in floor systems if things are not just right they tend not to work as advertised. I suspect yours needs some adjustments.

    Generally we find infloor systems are less effective and have more problems than other ways to clean the pool. Great idea but they are temperamental and rarely work as advertised for long.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    How many hours a day are you running your pump and at what rpms on your variable speed pump?

    In floor systems rely on water pressure to move debris. As such, a high pump rpm is usually needed. In addition, it takes a certain amount of time for the cleaning heads to make one entire revolution.

    While I have a different in floor system (which I've had for almost 17 years - and wouldn't be without), i run mine for 2 hours in the AM and 2 hours in the PM at 2800 or 2900 rpm. Does it get absolutely everything? No, but it gets pretty much everything but palm fronds and the biggest leaves. As for dust and dirt - i run it extra hours after a monsoon dust storm - but the rest of the time ito runs 4 hours/day. Sure, I still need to brush about once a week - both sidewalls and floor. All in all mine has been almost trouble free - and when I do have an issue with a part of the in floor system not performing as it should, a call to the manufacturer has resolved it ( and under their lifetime warranty).

    Your main drain isn't supposed to allow a lot of suction in a small area - such as your hand or a body part moving near/over it - for safety. If you could feel a lot of suction in a small area, it would be an entrapment hazard. The inherent design prevents this.

    Does your system have the debris canister also? If so, is it in the pool deck or at the equipment and is it cleaned out?

    Possibly posting a few pictures of your system (including any pool side and pump/filter side equipment) may help us to assist you in getting the most out of your system. A few minor adjustments of valves, pump speed and/or run time may allow it to perform better. At least you can exhaust the knowledge base here before having the PB come out.
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    ingound pools - most drains are 2 drains 2 feet apart plumbed on a T to prevent the suction danger issues
    since they are on a T if one plugs all the suction goes to the other

    THis is how I know
    P5080116.jpg

    one of mine was 2/3 full of debris when I bough this house

    But with the pump running at decent speed and the valve set so all the return if from the drain its easy to feel the water heading towards the drain ...
    If you can hold your breath that long
    Doug - Purchased 1/2016, 1995 house with 16x31 ft, ~23000 gallon Gunite pool w 11x7 spa, 3 Pentair VS pumps, a boost pump for polaris 3900 and a BaduŽ Jet super-sport swim jet pump, 1.5 hp blower, a CL460 Cartridge filter. TF-100 test kit. Aquapure SWG, iAqualink - Lots to learn. New Aquabright, Jandy LEDs, CMP LED Sheers.

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Main drains keep dirt off your floor?

    I have them and there is still dirt on the floor, vacuuming or brushing dirt towards the main drains is needed.
    Michigan - 24'x54" AG, approx 15,000g, 2 center drains, Cartridge filter, Aqua Pro 2hp, 2 speed pump 3.5a@1725w / 10.5a@3450w, AquaCal TropiCal T90 heat pump, Hayward Salt & Swim SWG, Poolskim, Aquabot Rover Jr.

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trick View Post
    Main drains keep dirt off your floor?

    I have them and there is still dirt on the floor, vacuuming or brushing dirt towards the main drains is needed.
    Thanks for jumping in to help!
    The OP has an in floor cleaning system which pushes dirt and debris toward the main drains using pressurized water from the return side of the filter - specifically this one:
    PV3 - Paramount Pool and Spas
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    thanks everyone. i'm having probs downloading pics but i'll keep working on it. in the meantime to answer questions, filter set to run:
    T1-all 10p-1pm (95%), T2-all 1Am-7AM (35%), T3-all 7am-9am (95%). if i need to check rpms i'll try to figure out how to do that. for now it tells me in percentages. I guess I could turn them up to 100% for T1 and T3? I don't see that making a huge amount of difference. the DE filter isn't even half way up to the red arrow. "cleaning" valve is open at least 4/5ths of the way while the returns are shut 1/5 of the way. I will get pics of this and my dirt all over the bottom of the pool after having run all night.
    water feature is closed. quick skim is closed. vac closed. skimmer is open about 1/5 and drain open about 4/5 but i still see pollen on the pool and lots of dirt at the bottom, accept not much where the kids mostly play at the 3 1/2 ft part of the pool. the other 2/3 of the pool (5 ft and 4 ft) are full of dirt at the bottom.
    main drain is on the same valve as the skimmer but there is a pipe going into the ground for the drain and a pipe going into the ground for the skimmer. so, when we open one we close the other. that is the same for the infloor "cleaning" and returns.

    we have a debri canister at the pump and the skimmer canister at the pool. We empty them weekly. We brushed the pool Friday and Saturday and it's MOnday and it 's dirty again. I wasn't around much yesterday so didn't take a look at it. The panel has been telling me to check system, inspect cell now. but we've always had problems with the infloor. they just wouldn't acknowledge it saying it wouldn't clear up until we got grass put in. we have grass and i don't see it as any better. we've already had a green pool a few times this summer and the water isn't even warm. chlorine isn't going any higher than 2.0 and I have the salt cell turned up to 100% and we cleaned it yesterday and it was pretty clean already. we have backwashed 4-5 times and got the pool finished in July. we did have a lot of dirt according to the pb so we kept on that. we need to pay them to come out and show us how to clean the DE filter, but that shouldn't be causing any of these probs, should it? I spoke to a pool cleaner guy and he told me that the in floor should work and my pool should be clean each morn after running. he said maybe cuz the drain that is on the side of the pool is closer to the pump it will have more suction than the main drain that is on the floor of the pool. if that were the case, I'd say this is a bad design. Really needing some help. thx!
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    20160606_082827.jpg

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    20160606_075230.jpg

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    20160606_075157.jpg

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    20160606_075427.jpg
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    20160606_075520.jpg
    do I just press + to reset cell now that we cleaned it yesterday? why did the "check system" inspect cell notice come up anyway? is it automatic after 3 mths with a Hayward cell or could there be a prob? still not sure why it's not producing more than 2.0 chlorine after being set at 100%. the skimmer is a tad bit more open than usual but either way, it's closed more than the drain and I want to be able to use the skimmer and the infloor. it's so frustrating to have this much dirt in the pool and still pollen on top of the pool after it's run all night. maybe u can't see the dirt that great in the pics? thx for any help!!
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    there is also a drain on the side of the pool. When we look in the drain there is dirt/sand in the bottom of the drain that either hasn't gotten sucked into the DE filter yet or it's taking a while.
    Is this the leaf trap that is at the side of the pool (#3 in the pic below)? Do you empty the trap regularly? If you just brush your hand over the dirt, it should push the dirt into the pump hole. You may just have too much flow drawing from the skimmer vs the drain. You should be able to close down the skimmer a little more have it still work.

    Yes, press and hold + to reset. It will show up every three months as a reminder.

    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    20160605_165359.jpg20160605_165359.jpg
    this was a pic that i took of the gate cuz the gate guy has to come fix it. wanted to show how much dirt we have in our yard cuz i know they will try to argue that we have too much dirt in our yard. we have not finished laying down rock and plants all around the pool but i don't think it's as excessive as they are trying to make it sound. there was no wind last night and noone was in the pool, so dirt in the yard isn't a reason for it to have not picked it up last night.
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Is this the leaf trap that is at the side of the pool (#3 in the pic below)? Do you empty the trap regularly? If you just brush your hand over the dirt, it should push the dirt into the pump hole. You may just have too much flow drawing from the skimmer vs the drain. You should be able to close down the skimmer a little more have it still work.

    Yes, press and hold + to reset. It will show up every three months as a reminder.

    It think we were posting at the same time so you might have missed this.

    With a venturi skimmer, you should be able to redirect a lot of water away from the skimmer (on the suction side) and still have it work well. That is why they are often used with in-floors.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    yes, leaf canister empty and skimmer basket empty. i'm putting the drain on fully open and closing the skimmer completely and letting the pool run another hour just to see how it goes. although now my kids want to get in it and i never let them play while the pop ups are up so they won't break it so we'll see if i shut it off in a bit. went out to look at the pop ups and one of them had bubbles coming out of it up to the surface. that doesn't seem right. could it be blocked? that's on the side of the pool that's the cleanest cuz the kids play there so i think they move the dirt around. i'm going to at least let it run a full cycle so i can take a look at the other pop ups. it seems like the dirt is too heavy and it doesn't blow around with the pop ups. could sandy dirt be too heavy for pop ups? if so, what good is the infloor to us. this 995 clean, what does that mean? I thought it was 99 percent of the floor surface not the whole pool. thx!

    - - - Updated - - -

    my leaf trap looks different. it's the black shorter thing behind the pipes. i'll take a pic and upload it.
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    20160606_103604.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    20160606_101602.jpg this is how much stuff was in the leaf canister before just cleaning it out. the leaf canister is in the above pic.
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    That is the pump basket. It should have very little in it because the skimmer and the other leaf trap should collect the debris. Do you have a second basket close to the pool (not the skimmer)?

    BTW, is that the EcoStar pump?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    i thought i recalled the sections of pop ups rotating 5 minutes per section or so. i haves it on T3 right now and only the first 3 have popped up so far (in the cleaner section of the pool). It's been about 20 min. could it be that it's stuck on that section and the rest of the pool is not popping up? how long is each section supposed to take before the next section of pop ups pop up? thx
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    When using the in floor cleaner, the returns should probably be totally off. This allows maximum water flow to the cleaning heads.

    There is an item called a water valve, probably located near the pool. It's a domed device with a pressure gauge on the top and a number of pipes exiting the bottom. On this water valve is a lever which allows you to pause the system on a particular zone (a few heads) or to run through each zone in succession - be sure it's not in the paused position. The different zones should cycle for a given time based on pump speed - as pump speed affect flow rate, which affect water flow through the water valve.

    If you only have one drain on the floor and one on the wall, this is to help prevent entrapment on the drains. In normal circumstances, the floor drain is fully open. If someone or something restricts/covers that drain, the flow changes to the wall drain. This prevents entrapment on the drain.

    The quick skim sends clean return water to the skimmer. In the skimmer, this return water is injected through a nozzle creating a venturi effect to help draw water into the skimmer from the pool surface.

    Around the perimeter of the pool, check under each deck cover for the Debris Containment Canister - you may or may not have this, as it's an optional item. If you do have one, be sure the bag inside is completely clean.
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    That is the pump basket. It should have very little in it because the skimmer and the other leaf trap should collect the debris. Do you have a second basket close to the pool (not the skimmer)?

    BTW, is that the EcoStar pump?
    mas 985, sorry i think we posted at the same time and i missed this. I forgot, we do also have a leaf canister and my husband empties that weekly. he said we don't usually have too many leaves in the canister. (seeing we live in the desert). EcoStar doesn't ring a bell as far as the pump. it's in my signature, Hayward variable speed pump. I could check if it also says EcoStar, though.
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Quote Originally Posted by proavia View Post
    When using the in floor cleaner, the returns should probably be totally off. This allows maximum water flow to the cleaning heads.

    There is an item called a water valve, probably located near the pool. It's a domed device with a pressure gauge on the top and a number of pipes exiting the bottom. On this water valve is a lever which allows you to pause the system on a particular zone (a few heads) or to run through each zone in succession - be sure it's not in the paused position. The different zones should cycle for a given time based on pump speed - as pump speed affect flow rate, which affect water flow through the water valve.

    If you only have one drain on the floor and one on the wall, this is to help prevent entrapment on the drains. In normal circumstances, the floor drain is fully open. If someone or something restricts/covers that drain, the flow changes to the wall drain. This prevents entrapment on the drain.

    The quick skim sends clean return water to the skimmer. In the skimmer, this return water is injected through a nozzle creating a venturi effect to help draw water into the skimmer from the pool surface.

    Around the perimeter of the pool, check under each deck cover for the Debris Containment Canister - you may or may not have this, as it's an optional item. If you do have one, be sure the bag inside is completely clean.
    Proavia, I was wondering that about the returns, actually. Is the point of the returns to send water back into the pool and keep water moving so it's not stagnant? if so, seems that's what the in-floor does, too, just on the floor, not on the wall? When would i ever need to turn the returns on or is it somewhat a useless feature for my pool?

    PB told me never to touch the water valve. I'm a bit scared of it. they said there is so much pressure in there if i opened it while it was running it could blow my head off. made me wish i put it far away from the pool. would we have to open it to see if it's paused? from what i saw it only has something on top that shows the pressure it's running at (?).

    thx!
    40' x 12' IG shotcrete (3 1/2' 5, 4'), Hayward variable spd pumpSP3400VSP, Paramount PV3 in-floor, venturi skimmer, 14,400 glns, Hayward Turbo salt cell T Cell-15, UV, Hayward DE filter, model DE4820, 2 Hayward Color Logic 320 LED color lights, Hayward P4 w puck. 2" line to in-floor valve (46'), deck mount canister parascoping fountain, leaf canister, Marbella, pebble. new build 6-24-15

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    Re: main drain has dirt and debri sitting in the bottom-no suction?

    Returns can be used if you don't want the pop ups to "pop up". I do this when we have a pool party. Swimmers won't bump their toes on the pop ups if returns are on fully while pump is running. I also use returns when adding chemicals to help mix them faster.

    You NEVER open any equipment while it's running. Always turn it off - many will turn off the circuit breaker to be sure the timer doesn't inadvertently start the system while they are maintaining the system. Water valve doesn't have any more pressure in it than any other equipment or piping in the system. PB is probably trying to protect owners who know absolutely nothing about their systems - and to get the owner to call them if anything doesn't "seem" right. Also helps generate $$$ for their service department via service calls.

    No, you don't need to open anything to change the run/pause lever. You don't even have to shut equipment off. The lever is located on the dome lid by the pressure gauge.
    See this page: Water Valve - Paramount Pool and Spas
    Gene
    ​12,300 gal IG play pool - Pebbletec - built 10/1999 || Hayward S360SX 36" sand filter || Hayward Ecostar SP3400 VSP || A&A In-Floor cleaning system || Quik Water Leveler || Quik Dek-clor (limited use)
    TF-100 testkit / Speedstir - A good test kit is not an expense, it's an investment

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