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Thread: heating options

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    iam4iam's Avatar
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    heating options

    I have contemplated a number of options of potentially lengthening the swimming season by at least a few weeks on each end, one of which I actually implemented. I made a pool cover out of PVC and 3 mil plastic, but I was only able to use it for one season, as it got torn up during the winter because it wasn't stored properly. I started remaking them the last spring, but didn't complete the task, and half of them got destroyed this winter as well. Needless to say, even though I think this is likely my best bet in accomplishing my goal of lengthening my swimming season, I cannot bring myself to complete the task again.

    I have also considered the hose/sump method, but research (here on TFP mostly) has indicated that the volume of water that is heated is more important than how hot the water (in the hose) gets. In considering this method, though, I don't remember ever reading that the water should be taken from near the surface of the pool and returned near the bottom, since heat rises. Did I not read this because it is so obvious that it is considered to be an assumption, or am I not thinking properly about the (simplified) physics of heat transfer? Assuming the former, I also had this thought:

    What if I redirected the water from my returns to the bottom of the pool using PVC? Then I would be effectively transferring the entire volume of the pool from the surface to the bottom every day. Surely there is a 1-2 degree difference in temperature between the surface and the bottom, isn't there? Has anyone thought of (and tried) this? Is this idea crazy, ingenious, or somewhere in between? As I said before, I have only a very simplified understanding of heat transfer. I simply know that heat goes to where there is less of it (which for some reason is generally up).

    By the way, I have even thought about purchasing a pool heater, albeit not very seriously, as they are quite expensive up front and surely are not inexpensive to use either. I read here on TFP that the recommended brand is Raypak, but the recommendations for this product make me leery of buying one! Are these consistent negative comments accurate at all, or is this just a specific model that should be avoided?
    ~18,000 gal (16x32)
    Hayward sand filter
    Circupool RJ45 SWG
    Water Ace pump (age and power unknown; all I know is it is not a Whisperflow and draws about 1.5kW)

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    banditig's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    I made a pvc pipe that directs heated water to the bottom
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...sing-a-spa-jet
    With my solar cover on it seems to make a difference. Yes warm water rises. I don't know about that model Raypak, but I am happy with mine (over 3 years).
    15x54 swim & play vinyl metal wall AG
    Hayward S210T sand filter 1.5 HP Pentair Superflo vs
    Rheem raypak 130,000 BTU mv ng
    Jacuzzi 345 whirlpool bath
    TF-100 test kit, HM digital com100 Wanda the Whale

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    Re: heating options

    I repair and replace gas pool heaters for a living. I can assure you that Raypak is a quality product over the others out there. The link you provided to the heater on Amazon is for a millivolt unit which in most places are no longer allowed. I install Raypak/Rheem 10 to 1 over other brands and would not install so many if they were a problem child. The biggest thing is keeping your pool water balanced correctly. That is the number 1 reason for pool heater failures. #2 would be sprinkler heads that spray on the units. #3 for certain areas would be improper winterization.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: heating options

    Or you can do what my Buddy did. He calls this his: "Red-Neck Pool Heater". And he lives in Jersey too.
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    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

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    iam4iam's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by banditig View Post
    With my solar cover on it seems to make a difference.
    I guess I should either suck it up and redo my homemade cover or just buy a cheap one. Can you tell whether redirecting the return water to the bottom makes a difference as compared to the pool cover alone?
    ~18,000 gal (16x32)
    Hayward sand filter
    Circupool RJ45 SWG
    Water Ace pump (age and power unknown; all I know is it is not a Whisperflow and draws about 1.5kW)

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    Re: heating options

    I can't prove it helps, but with the warm water directed to the bottom, I no longer have cold layers like I used to. My solar cover is blue on top and silver on the bottom, seems to realy help hold heat at night. I think a solar cover will help.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have also heard of people re-plumb the main drain as a return also.
    15x54 swim & play vinyl metal wall AG
    Hayward S210T sand filter 1.5 HP Pentair Superflo vs
    Rheem raypak 130,000 BTU mv ng
    Jacuzzi 345 whirlpool bath
    TF-100 test kit, HM digital com100 Wanda the Whale

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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by banditig View Post
    I have also heard of people re-plumb the main drain as a return also.
    When my pool was being built, it was told to me that they plumb the pool in such a way that the main drain can be used as a suction or a return. They called it the "deep heat" option. Works great and it's a very simple plumbing that utilizes two 3 way valves and a crossover pipe that attaches the return side to the suction side. Turn one on, one off and it's that simple.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

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    Re: heating options

    Some day I hope to have an in ground, thanks I would definatly want that option.
    15x54 swim & play vinyl metal wall AG
    Hayward S210T sand filter 1.5 HP Pentair Superflo vs
    Rheem raypak 130,000 BTU mv ng
    Jacuzzi 345 whirlpool bath
    TF-100 test kit, HM digital com100 Wanda the Whale

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    iam4iam's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by banditig View Post
    I have also heard of people re-plumb the main drain as a return also.
    I don't even have a main drain, but that sounds interesting! That would sure be more stealth than extra PVC in the pool. I have heard that most standard (<$100) pool covers only last a couple of years. Even if that is true, I can see them possibly being the best bang for the buck. Anyone have an opinion on this one? (I trust TFP reviews above Amazon!)
    ~18,000 gal (16x32)
    Hayward sand filter
    Circupool RJ45 SWG
    Water Ace pump (age and power unknown; all I know is it is not a Whisperflow and draws about 1.5kW)

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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemass View Post
    When my pool was being built, it was told to me that they plumb the pool in such a way that the main drain can be used as a suction or a return. They called it the "deep heat" option. Works great and it's a very simple plumbing that utilizes two 3 way valves and a crossover pipe that attaches the return side to the suction side. Turn one on, one off and it's that simple.
    In all my years I have never heard of this nor have I ever seen it.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    mikemass's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    I'll post a pic or video later today or tomorrow.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

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    Re: heating options

    Go get one of these, Yard Guard Clear Choice Solar Blanket 16' X 32' Oval - 8 Mil | Sunplay.com and report back next year. It will make a BIG difference.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by ps0303 View Post
    In all my years I have never heard of this nor have I ever seen it.
    I'd be interested on more details as well.

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    mikemass's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemass View Post
    <snip>......the main drain can be used as a suction or a return. ....... a very simple plumbing that utilizes two 3 way valves and a crossover pipe that attaches the return side to the suction side. Turn one on, one off and it's that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by ps0303 View Post
    In all my years I have never heard of this nor have I ever seen it.
    Quote Originally Posted by darin.brown View Post
    I'd be interested on more details as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemass View Post
    I'll post a pic or video later today or tomorrow.
    Here is the video showing how my system is plumbed so I can return water via the main drain thereby heating the water from the "bottom, up". Watch it with the sound on so you can hear me walk you through which valves does what. The entire video is 6 minutes, in 2 parts. The first 3 minutes is the actual plumbing. The next 3 minutes is the pool itself, so you can see where my returns and skimmers are. I got home late and was running out of daylight. I will be more than happy to post another video if you have any more questions and need more detail.

    Any questions about anything else you see there that needs clarification, please ask. If you leave a comment on my YouTube channel I will answer there as well.

    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

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    Re: heating options

    Interesting. I wonder how many pool builders would do this. Again, I've never seen at on any pools that I've worked on.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: heating options

    Awesome. Thanks. Nice pool!
    15x54 swim & play vinyl metal wall AG
    Hayward S210T sand filter 1.5 HP Pentair Superflo vs
    Rheem raypak 130,000 BTU mv ng
    Jacuzzi 345 whirlpool bath
    TF-100 test kit, HM digital com100 Wanda the Whale

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    iam4iam's Avatar
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    Re: heating options

    Just reporting back. I got a $70* solar cover from Amazon and diverted my returns to near the bottom of the deep end. As reported by many who use one, it makes a difference not only in water temperature, but also chlorine usage. Previously 91 was the highest temperature the water had reached, and that only for a day. It would usually hit 90 for a day or two at some point each year. Since purchasing the solar cover, my water temp has around 90 (or higher) for over a month. My chlorine consumption has reduced from 2.2-2.4 PPM/day to 1.5-1.7 PPM/day! I used to run the SWG at 100% for 4 hours during peak usage, but this year 70-80% for 4 hours has been sufficient.

    *I see it is only $25 at the moment! I think I might buy a couple more and just store them for when this one wears out!
    ~18,000 gal (16x32)
    Hayward sand filter
    Circupool RJ45 SWG
    Water Ace pump (age and power unknown; all I know is it is not a Whisperflow and draws about 1.5kW)

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    Re: heating options

    My PB offered an option he called "Deep Heat". It consists of six addition returns spaced out equally in the floor of the pool and the ability to redirect water from the heater to them or to both the side returns and the floor returns. I've used it twice the past two weekends to raise the temp approx 12 degrees and it works great! No cool spots in the pool and I believe it is more efficient.
    Matt- IG gunite pool and spa built Summer 2016: 32' x 20' overall with two 4' x 8' tanning ledges. 6'x6' attached spa with spillover. Depth 3' to 5' to 4'. 16.4K gal. Lueders Limestone retaining wall and coping. Equip: Pentair SVRS vari. speed pump. Pentair 60 sq. ft. DE filter. Pentair Kreepy Crawly Plat. cleaner. Pentair MasterTemp 400,000 BTU NG heater. 1.5 HP spa air blower. Nature2 Sanitizer. Taylor K-206C. My 2016 Build

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