Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Automated pH balancer

  1. Back To Top    #1
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Automated pH balancer

    I am thinking of adding an automated pH adjuster after 10 years of constantly dealing with the never ending cycle of pH rises, add acid, pH rises, add acid.... All season long.

    The question is which one. I want it to be the most seamless plug and play into my existing system. Here are the details of my pool which I'm sure is needed for y'all to make some solid recommendations:

    Northeast Climate (Jersey specifically)
    38k Gallon In Ground
    Gunite/White plaster
    Nat Gas heater
    Built in Hot tub with overflow (all one body of water with the pool)
    Salt Water Chlorination
    Current system is running: Goldline Aqua-Logic AQL-PS-8 (So plenty of expandability) - It's an older system. But still fully functional with 4 more unused AUX ports.

    Looking for advice on an automated acid dispenser, pH down adjuster, etc.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    5,079

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    What were you maintaining your TA at during these cycles of pH rise? Is your fill water high in TA, leading to an increase in TA when reopening in the spring?
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

  3. Back To Top    #3
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    90, No, and No

    But I don't want to turn this into a "why do you get pH spikes?" thread. I know why. It's the salt chlorinator and the constant water agitation from the spillover spa.

    That is why I posted in the Chemical Automation section and not the pool chemistry section. I simply am hoping to get lucky that someone here may have experience adding a pH adjuster to an existing Goldline (or updated) Hayward system and share some pros and cons in aiding my decision.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

  4. Back To Top    #4
    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    5,079

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Or you know, you could still do the automation and run at the TA recommended here at TFP of 60-80 (60 likely good in your situation) and have the best of both worlds: automation and not needing to refill the MA reservoir every week. But to each their own. Maintaining the TA at 90 and then blaming the your aeration ALONE is incorrect.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

  5. Back To Top    #5
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Quote Originally Posted by JVTrain View Post
    Or you know, you could still do the automation and run at the TA recommended here at TFP of 60-80 (60 likely good in your situation) and have the best of both worlds: automation and not needing to refill the MA reservoir every week. But to each their own. Maintaining the TA at 90 and then blaming the your aeration ALONE is incorrect.
    Well I guess it was inevitable this thread would get sidetracked with a "what's causing this?" as opposed to my question at hand. I was just hoping it wouldn't get derailed so quick. Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate any advice. But I just try to keep the topics appropriate to the sections they are posted in. I have spent much time season after season in the other sections studying up on why my pH spikes. And have come to the conclusion it's primarily my SWG (Aeration from spa to a lesser extent despite you saying I blamed that ALONE)

    So here goes another discussion in the wrong section:

    Last year I once and for all wanted to see how large an impact the SWG was on Spiking pH levels. So in late June after pool was open and running for a while and the nasty pollen had settled down I did my own experiment. First thing first, I went to Costco and bought a dozen cases of Bleach. (3 per - so a total of 36 Gallons).

    Next I brought down my pH to 7.2 using MA which I buy from Lowes. Then I completely turned off the SWG. I also drastically reduced the amount of time my spa would spillover during the day. (I had to run it somewhat otherwise the spa water would never have been circulated).

    For the next 2 weeks I chlorinated using bleach and only bleach. Every night I would come home from work and add another gallon. Sometimes 2. Sometimes at even other points during the day depending on heat and sun. I was keeping the Cl High. I wasn't taking a chance of getting a bloom during this experiment.

    Test pH every night when I would get home before I would add more bleach. Night One - 7.2, night Two - 7.2, night Three - 7.2, etc. You get the point. At the end of 10 days I was reading 7.6. Cool. No need to keep up this nonsense when I have an expensive system I wasn't using. So that Sat morning I put the SWG back on it's normal setting. Turned the Spa spillover to operate through the duration of the pump cycle and stopped adding bleach.... In other words - Everything back to "Normal"

    Monday night - come home from work - pH > 8.4 (purple darker than highest mark on the vial).

    Now I never thought of a TA reading of 90 to be overly high, unacceptable or a level that causes excessive pH bounce. I am curious as to why you say 60 "in my situation" is better? Is that because I am running a SWG? I guess I am confused as to what makes my situation unique. But I am certainly willing to listen.

    But none of this changes the fact that I am going to still experience pH bounce with the use of a SWG. Thereby requiring frequent addition of a "pH down". I have no problem controlling it with frequent doses of MA, I just prefer a system where I don't have to handle acid every other day. Which means I still want suggestions on a automated system.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    5,079

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    I appreciate your desire to keep things on topic and hesitated a bit before I first replied because of where this was posted. However, the TA recommendation for SWG pools is different than for manually chlorinated pools for just the reason you're experiencing continued pH rise now. See the recommended levels here: Pool School - Recommended Levels 70-90+ TA for plaster, manual chlorination and 60-80 TA for plaster, SWG pools. This all has to do with what your SWG does (as you know) and how TA relates to that. Your SWG is a very significant source of aeration. Aeration increases pH rise. At lower TA levels this pH rise rate is decreased because pH rise is caused by outgassing of carbon dioxide. If you have lower levels of bicarbonate (TA) in the water, carbon dioxide isn't driven out of the water as fast for an equivalent amount of aeration. So... long story short. With an SWG and your waterfall, you have lots of aeration. A lower TA will slow your pH rise. See Pool School for how to lower your TA.

    I didn't want to derail your inquiry for help with automation, but I felt I could point you in the right direction to also help reduce acid usage once you get it installed. I guess at worst it's another bump for your topic.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Herndon, VA
    Posts
    419

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  8. Back To Top    #8
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Quote Originally Posted by JVTrain View Post
    I didn't want to derail your inquiry for help with automation, but I felt I could point you in the right direction to also help reduce acid usage once you get it installed. I guess at worst it's another bump for your topic.
    It's all good. This is all excellent info. Sorry if I came off strong with the derail comment. Many of these pool topics naturally come back to pool chemistry because that is probably 99% of the root of all issues. I will knock down the TA to the low end of range and report back in a few days while I continue to research these CO2 and acid systems. Ugh. More gallons of acid.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Valrico, FL
    Posts
    536

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    The problem I had with low TA was that it would not stay there. After several months would be back up in the 90-120 range. To answer the OP question, I installed a Stiener feed pump and tank to feed MA on a daily basis. I use my Hayward Aqua Plus controller to turn the pump on and off, running it for a set time each day. Takes a while to get it dialed in, however once set works great.

    If you are looking for a totally automation solution Hayward makes a retro fit to your existing controller. Search on AQL-Chem.
    7,500 gal, IG pool, L shape 22' x 15', 1.5 hp pump, cartridge filter, AquaPlus SWG/Controller, Pebble-Tec liner.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Sugar Land , TX
    Posts
    388

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    You could use a Stenner pump system if you know how much your pool needs to be dosed every day. I would think once you get your pH to the level you want it would take very little acid to maintain. You could inject just before the SWG and clean it at the same time! Since you have extra aux on your auto system you can make sure Stenner only runs when pump is on. Just like I do with my Stenner chlorine system.
    8500 gallon IG Pebble Sheen with Spa. 3hp Pentair VS Intelliflo ( pool ), 3/4 hp WhisperFlo ( water feature ),Pentair Racer, 400K Pentair heater, Pentair 500sqft Cartridge filter, EasyTouch 8, Stenner 45mp2 15gallon wired to ET8

  11. Back To Top    #11
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Quote Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
    The problem I had with low TA was that it would not stay there. After several months would be back up in the 90-120 range.
    I didn't really want to get into this here, but same with me. Except in my case it's more like days & weeks, not months.

    Quote Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
    To answer the OP question, I installed a Stiener feed pump and tank to feed MA on a daily basis. I use my Hayward Aqua Plus controller to turn the pump on and off, running it for a set time each day. Takes a while to get it dialed in, however once set works great.
    This is a great idea. Thank You.

    Quote Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
    If you are looking for a totally automation solution Hayward makes a retro fit to your existing controller. Search on AQL-Chem.
    Even better Thank You. This is exactly what I imagined.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rphpool View Post
    You could use a Stenner pump system if you know how much your pool needs to be dosed every day. I would think once you get your pH to the level you want it would take very little acid to maintain.
    I do. And you'd be surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by rphpool View Post
    You could inject just before the SWG and clean it at the same time!
    Interesting idea. I wonder if this would actually work as the water rushes through quick fast.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Newton, NC
    Posts
    157

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Hopefully, I can directly answer the OP's original question.

    I have the Hayward Sense & Dispense with an acid pump connected to my Hayward Prologic. The recommended ratio of water-to-acid is, I believe, 3 to 1. My pool builder suggested going 50/50 since it saves a bit of wear and tear on the acid pump, and in our North Carolina winters where it does go below freezing, a 50/50 mixture is not going to freeze.

    My experience has been that the Sense & Dispense keeps the pH rock solid at my setting of 7.5. In the spring when I am working on getting the TA, CH, CYA balance right and adding a bunch of stuff to the water, I disable the automatic pH feed since it tends to generate some wild swings. But, once I get everything in balance, the pH is very stable.

    I've read that you have to replace the sensors (pH and ORP) every couple of years. I clean the probes a couple of times a year, and I'm still using my original sensors from 2012. The pH always matches my water test within .1. The ORP has slowly drifted from it original calibration, but it provides consistent readings throughout the summer.
    Vince L

    16' x 37' fiberglass pool, 8' fiberglass spa, Hayward Swimclear C3030 filter, Hayward EcoStar VS pump, Goldline Pro Logic PL-PS-8, Goldline SWCG, Goldline Sense & Dispense pH control, Fiberstars LED's in pool & spa, AquaCal SQ175R heat pump, SR Smith Typhoon slide, Polaris 9300xi robotic cleaner, TF-100 Test Kit

  13. Back To Top    #13
    mikemass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Northern Howell, NJ
    Posts
    484

    Re: Automated pH balancer

    Vince. Thank you for advice on the Hayward Sense & Dispense.
    25 + year pool owner. Current pool (going on 11th year) - 38K gallon in ground Gunite/White Plaster, Spillover Spa, Hayward Cartridge Filter, Hayward 450k BTU NG Heater, Hayward Goldline Aqua Logic control with T-Cell-15 Salt Water Cell, Dolphin Explorer.
    You Need: Bleach, a A Test Kit & a Bookmark to "Pool School". Now what's your question?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •