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Thread: 110v vs 220v

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    110v vs 220v

    I'm sure this topic has been debated to death, but here is my situation and what I am planning on doing.... I bought a house with a 30-40 yr old pool that has a none working pump and leaking filter system so I am gutting the whole thing and redoing it. It's in a pool pump room with its own subpanel which I have stripped down to rewire (other things as well as the pump)

    Previous pump was some knock off pump and I don't even know what the horsepower is. I replaced it with a 1.5hp SuperFlo VS last year, but alas 11 months later it is making a racket with all the ball bearings. I didn't see any substantial savings with the variable speed so I am ditching it going back to the old school way of doing things, single speed pump with a digital timer. My Pentair SWG unit that I put in around the same time has an issue with the flow switch where it shows always ON. Anyway, I previously wired the Superflo VS on 220 but I am getting just a regular SuperFlo and I am switching the wiring to 110v and here is why....

    My digital timer will work with 110v or 220v so I set it to 110v
    I changed the power center for the SWG to 110v also
    I am going to wire the new 1.5hp SuperFlo to 110v
    I ran #10 (like 4ft of wire) from the timer to a box I roughed in with a normal GFCI switch
    I have to replace the #12 going to the timer from the subpanel with #10 (like 2 ft of wire)
    I ran separate 8 gauge grounds to the timer and then the rough in box, and then going to ground it on the pump (for safety purposes)

    My questions are such (but let me make a quick statement)
    If you plan on telling me that 220v is more effiecient then 110v then please don't comment because thats simply not true. The pump is rated at 8amps at 220v and 16amps at 110v which is the same....yes, I understand that there sometimes is some wattage savings at 208v (I have a 208 high leg at my house so while thats a possibility, I don't plan on doing it because the 10c a day savings is not that important for the work that would be entailed to run that high leg to my subpanel)

    The reason I am going 110v is because I can get a 30amp single pole homeline breaker for 3 dollars at Home Depot and the standard GFCI receptacle was 10 dollars vs the cost of the 20amp double pole with GFCI protection being A LOT MORE.

    I decided also that I am going away from the VS version because I don't want to have to replace a whole expensive unit every time my pump needs replacing, as well as I don't feel like fixing bearing, installing just a new motor unit, etc etc every time something happens when I can just wire a separate timer that will last forever and just swap out pumps when they finally die. And now I can wire my SWG to the timer which fixes the problem with those [poor] Intellichlor flow switches...Plus the original SuperFlo seems to have a pretty good track record so I will just replace with another one of the exact pumps when the old one dies... I'm tired of plumbing in new unions, etc etc to switch between different pumps and pump manufacturers....

    So my question is about the longevity of the motor on 110v vs 220v.... Some claim that the 220v will run 'cooler' and the pump life will be increased... I wanted your opinion on how much merit there is to this or is it marginally better then running it 110v.... If its marginally, I will continue with my setup....but if its a dramatic difference then I can always switch the neutral to the second hot lead, adjust the wiring and jumpers on the timer, and adjust the wiring on the pumps as well, and replace the GFCI plug I currently have and just go with the more expensive breaker....

    Thanks in advance,

    Aaron

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    A few extra details, I am in the SE so our utility rates are about 11c a KW. The 1.5hp SuperFlo will cycle my 20,000 gallon pool in about 5 hrs with 40ft of head and 1.5" plumbing. 1760w times 5 hrs is about 8.8Kw per day or roughly about a dollar a day to run

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    After the terminal block in the motor, there is no difference between 115v vs 230v. At the terminal block 115v is feed in parallel to the two halves of the windings each with current I. For 230v, the two halves of the windings are fed in series with a total current of I. So the current in the motor winding and feed wires is exactly the same but only right after the connections to the terminal block. For some motors, the thermal limiter may also have higher current for 115v.

    So there should be no difference in motor reliability other than the connections to the terminal block.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    I can tell you I love my superflo, it's a rock star
    Amazon.com : Pentair 340042 SuperFlo High Performance Energy Efficient Two Speed Pool Pump, 1 Horsepower, 230 Volt, 1 Phase - Energy Star Certified : Swimming Pool Water Pumps : Patio, Lawn Garden

    I don't know about the bearings but those VS pumps really need surge protectors on them, they do not like spikes or lightning or brown outs or anything else, I am in OK and we get lightning all the time and all the things just mentioned and my superflo just keeps on ticking
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    After the terminal block in the motor, there is no difference between 115v vs 230v. At the terminal block 115v is feed in parallel to the two halves of the windings each with current I. For 230v, the two halves of the windings are fed in series with a total current of I. So the current in the motor winding and feed wires is exactly the same but only right after the connections to the terminal block. For some motors, the thermal limiter may also have higher current for 115v.

    So there should be no difference in motor reliability other than the connections to the terminal block.
    ahh, makes sense... thank you for the explanation...

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Why do you need a 1.5 HP pump ? I have the Energy efficient version of the 1.5 HP that you're considering, and if I had to do it again, I'd probably get the 1 HP 2 speed model instead. I will grant that is a 220V pump (the 2 speed version, that is).
    16x32 IG 19,000 gallons, Pentair 1.5 hp Energy Efficient Superflo pump (348024),vinyl liner, Chlorine dispenser, Hayward S-244T sand filter

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by scooperhsd View Post
    Why do you need a 1.5 HP pump ? I have the Energy efficient version of the 1.5 HP that you're considering, and if I had to do it again, I'd probably get the 1 HP 2 speed model instead. I will grant that is a 220V pump (the 2 speed version, that is).
    I was thinking about getting the 1HP Superflo model but when I crunched the numbers, it was a lot less efficient.... For 110v, the 1HP uses 14.2amps while the 1.5HP uses 16amps...but the 1.5HP will get about 20gpm more with my current head of water and 1.5" piping. I can run the 1.5HP for 6hrs and break up the time cycles from 9am-12pm and 3pm-6pm and get enough skim time to keep the pool clean. Plus I have a robotic vacuum that kicks on twice a day for 3hrs to help keep the bottom clean and clean the sidewalls as well....anyway, thats my logic behind my decision....

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Keep in mind that motor ratings are maximums and not actual operating points. For that, you should be using APSP or Energy star measurements.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    You'll use half as many amps at 220 than at 110, which allows for smaller wire to be installed. The power consumption ends up being the same (volts x amps = power), but smaller wire can reduce your costs if you have high power needs and/or a long run.
    2016 total pool rebuild thread: here. Pool: 26,000 gal IG vinyl liner (20'x40') in Madison, WI. Gear: ​Superflo VS, Triton TR-60 filter, 2" hi-flow MPV, & Raypak 266A heater. Testing: Taylor K-2006C. Manual chems: 12.5% NaClO liquid, granular CYA, baking soda, 31.25% muriatic acid.

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Ok, so I decided to compromise and get away from the variable speed motor but not go all the way back to a single speed motor. With the advice from others here, I am going to go with the Superflo 2 speed motor. With the low cost of electricity here, but also my distaste for replacing expensive motors every year or two, I feel like it the least expensive solution to still achieve lower energy usage (and bill!)...

    So I guess I am going to rewire the whole thing for 220v (which is no big deal honestly)....but while I am wiring everything up, I decided to purchase a solar heater controller (Hayward GL-235) and I am going to wire and pipe everything in and then install the actual pipes up the side of the house and the panels at a later date...

    I am going to run my 2 speed pump about 16hrs a day on the low setting and I might run an hour or two on high (haven't decided exactly what I am going to do yet)....but I am either going to use a booster pump for the solar system to help push the water up, or see if I can wire the solar controller to my existing 2 speed pump...If I get a booster pump I know how to wire everything because I can just wire the controllers high voltage output to trigger the booster when it opens the valve...but if I don't, then I don't know how to wire the solar controllers high voltage output to turn the 2 speed motor on high....which leads me to my question....

    How do I wire the solar controller to the 2 speed pump... If I wire it directly to the high lead on the pump (and the common), then the pump will be receiving voltage on the high speed from the solar controller, and on the low speed from the timer simultaneously (which I'm guessing is a bad thing)...so how would I 'override' the timer and have the pump kick to high speed when the solar controller activates???

    And I already have a 1.5hp pool pump that is not self priming that I can use as a booster pump so I would not have to purchase one. If you were me, would you use the new pump that you already had? Or wire the solar controller to the high speed on the 2 speed pump?

    Thanks in advance...

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    You shouldn't need a booster for solar. I use to run mine on a 1/2 HP pump and two stories up. Also, the booster would have to be run with the existing pump anyway because you must filter the water before sending it to solar so the pump would have to be in series with the main pump and both running. So a booster really doesn't make sense.

    You could use a relay to switch between low and high speeds when solar kicks on:
    AD-PR40-2C-120A | Power relay 40A DPDT 120VAC coil, open style panel mount
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    You shouldn't need a booster for solar. I use to run mine on a 1/2 HP pump and two stories up. Also, the booster would have to be run with the existing pump anyway because you must filter the water before sending it to solar so the pump would have to be in series with the main pump and both running. So a booster really doesn't make sense.

    You could use a relay to switch between low and high speeds when solar kicks on:
    AD-PR40-2C-120A | Power relay 40A DPDT 120VAC coil, open style panel mount
    How would the relay, timers and controllers be wired? Assuming I'm using 2 timers (one for power and one for high speed/low speed switching)....

    I've never used a relay like this before so could you explain how it works? Would it sense power from the solar controller and thus 'switch' the output from the low speed input to the high speed input?

    Thanks for all your help btw...

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Does this help?

    But since you are going with 240v you will need a 240v SPDT/DPDT relay.

    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Makes sense. So I need a SPDT 240v relay for what I need. Now if I wanted to wire it where the Solar Controller was always on and could kick the pump on, even if the power timer was shut off, all I would have to do is move the filter to where the two speed switch is in the diagram and then wire the 2 speed switch to it? The reason I am thinking about setting it up like that is because I am thinking about activating the nocturnal cooling function of the controller, but I don't want to run my pump 24-7....so that would allow to the controller to kick the pump on in case the timer is off through the night....

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Now if I wanted to wire it where the Solar Controller was always on and could kick the pump on, even if the power timer was shut off, all I would have to do is move the filter to where the two speed switch is in the diagram and then wire the 2 speed switch to it?
    Yes but the solar controller works by the temperature difference between the water and the direct sun light. If the water is not moving, you don't have an accurate water temperature. The best thing to do is to set your run time for the highest solar gain period (12-4) and just run during that period.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Made this Solar Controller-Relay-Timer-2Sp Pump Diagram....
    I was limited in what I could draw since I did it in a spreadsheet, just wanted to see if the basic idea that I was conveying is correct.....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    That doesn't change my answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Yes but the solar controller works by the temperature difference between the water and the direct sun light. If the water is not moving, you don't have an accurate water temperature. The best thing to do is to set your run time for the highest solar gain period (12-4) and just run during that period.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by tmobileguy View Post
    If you plan on telling me that 220v is more effiecient then 110v then please don't comment because thats simply not true
    lol 220v is more efficient, you're just converting your 110v back to a 220v anyways you lose efficiency in the conversion. The motor runs overall stronger. The less amp draw down the wire means the current draw is more efficient. It might be a small amount but overall 220v is always better.
    Michigan - 24'x54" AG, approx 15,000g, 2 center drains, Cartridge filter, Aqua Pro 2hp, 2 speed pump 3.5a@1725w / 10.5a@3450w, AquaCal TropiCal T90 heat pump, Hayward Salt & Swim SWG, Poolskim, Aquabot Rover Jr.

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by Trick View Post
    lol 220v is more efficient, you're just converting your 110v back to a 220v anyways you lose efficiency in the conversion. The motor runs overall stronger. The less amp draw down the wire means the current draw is more efficient. It might be a small amount but overall 220v is always better.
    Sorry but this is totally untrue. There is no conversion of 110v to 220v in a motor only a change in the way the motor is wired (parallel vs series). The motor does not run stronger because the current and power of the motor are identical for 110v/220v. The only difference is the wire that feeds the motor and 110v usually uses larger gauge so the ohmic losses are similar.

    Please learn more about motors before posting false statements.


    3.5a@1725w / 10.5a@3450w
    FYI, a two speed motor runs as 1725 & 3450 RPM not watts.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: 110v vs 220v

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    That doesn't change my answer.
    Why would the water not be moving. The timer will still control the movement of the water 80-90% of the time except for the water in the solar collector panels. And if that water heats up to greater then 5 degrees over the pool water temp, then it opens up and starts moving as well. The temperature sensors are mounting IN the water pipes so they are still measuring the temp of the water in the sunlight, not just the temperature of the direct sunlight....

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