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Thread: how can resurface bids be so different

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    how can resurface bids be so different

    So is time to re-surface the pool (see pic)
    One bid is 14k; second bid is 32k
    Assuming I know nothing about the topic
    how can they be so different?
    what must I know to sort this out?
    thank you
    Attached Images Attached Images
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Is this for aggregate finish (pebble or quartz) or plaster?

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Including tile replacement or not?
    Sand blast surface or full chip out of old plaster?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by allinspector View Post
    Is this for aggregate finish (pebble or quartz) or plaster?
    plaster

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    Including tile replacement or not?
    Sand blast surface or full chip out of old plaster?
    14k discusses chip out; 32k discusses acid wash
    maybe I should post both bids

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    Including tile replacement or not?
    Sand blast surface or full chip out of old plaster?

    I think not tile replacement in either
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Jaimslaw's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    1. Get more bids; 2. Try to come up with as many specs as you can,referring to type of finish, type of tile, method of prep, etc so that you can get consistency amongst the various bids. I found I was able to do this by getting as much info as possible about the replaster process from the first PB bidder (ie really pick his brain). 3. Make sure bids have a reasonable amount of the specs of the job reflected on their bid (and run from bids that are ridiculously vague). 4. Do not shy away from calling back another PB to see if he will match or lower his earlier bid based upon more competitive bids you subsequently received.

    One way to help compare bids is to measure the linear feet of your pool perimeter as many (most?) PBs base their estimate on that figure.

    Although that is a huge disparity, I found some fairly large spreads between my repalster bids...but again, nothing that large. And as others have posted, it would help to know what you are doing besides having the surface re-done.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Could be that the high bid was just not interested and tried to bid themselves out.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    post the bids.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    Could be that the high bid was just not interested and tried to bid themselves out.
    Agree with this. Sounds like they didn't want the work, especially with not even doing a chip-out. Get at least 4-5 bids if possible.
    ~15K gal, IG gunite with new Wetedge Satin Matrix Pebble Finish installed mid 04/14, 1 HP Pentair Challanger pump, Sta-rite System 3 300 sqft cartridge filter, G3 cleaner

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan View Post
    post the bids.
    so I think I got it done
    one is two pages, one is five pages

    http://smugmug.engrav.me/Public/Pool-bids/
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Jaimslaw's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Run from that ridiculously high Pool Pro bid. The other bid seem in the right ball park though I would still get more bids.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimslaw View Post
    Run from that ridiculously high Pool Pro bid. The other bid seem in the right ball park though I would still get more bids.
    run? I think I will
    get more bids? will try but is tough in this location
    thank you
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    BTW, that Krisco bid is far more detailed as to the scope of work than what most PBs give, which IMO is a positive sign. (the other side of the spectrum being the estimate written up on the back of a business card, LOL).
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimslaw View Post
    BTW, that Krisco bid is far more detailed as to the scope of work than what most PBs give, which IMO is a positive sign. (the other side of the spectrum being the estimate written up on the back of a business card, LOL).
    agreed
    I kinda worry about the line

    Should there be additional costs, we would require that you sign an addendum or change order to the original contract, in the amount of these additional costs prior to proceeding with their removal.

    Did they bid low, planning on addendum for this addendum for that?
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Ask for referrals. THAT is where you will find your answer to that ^^^^ question.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Jaimslaw's Avatar
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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    This is a very standard provision in construction contracts and as such, does not typically signal a hidden agenda on the part of the contractor to increase the bid after the job commences. You are actually in a safer harbor than many by virtue of the contract's specificity as to the scope of the job (less room to justify an increase). Finally, such a provision is to apprise you of the contractors intention to have any changes that may be requested by you (ie, not just him) be reflected in a signed writing (e.g. change in type of finish, upgrade or repair of pool light, etc.). In sum, this is a common "change order" provision that should not be, in and of itself, cause for concern.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaimslaw View Post
    In sum, this is a common "change order" provision that should not be, in and of itself, cause for concern.
    thank you, is reassuring
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    32k sounds crazy high. We had original plaster and they chipped out a foot below the tile and then put a layer of bond coating on the entire pool before we had a new layer of Pebble Sheen applied. We had a large hot tub also done which cost around 13k for the whole job. Prices seem to vary by region also.
    Inground 22k gallon gunite 15x31 main pool, 15x7 wading pool/sunning deck, hot tub/with overflow (9' octagon with limestone top) & slide NSWG, Aqua Blue Pebble Sheen
    Filter dual cartridge Sta-rite 450sq/ft, TF-100 Test Kit
    Heater Raypak 2100 400k btu cupro-nickel exchanger
    Auto pool cover, Polaris 280 auto pool cleaner, Jandy AqualinkRS8 Remote Control System

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Engrav,

    You definitely need more bids but you also need to do some homework first. You should decide what the scope of work is for the contractors. Based on the two bids it looks to me that you're letting the contractors decide this. If you don't know what is needed you can determine this two ways. First, hire an expert as a consultant to thoroughly inspect the pool for what is required then combine that with your preferences for materials, features etc. Or you can invite contractors to inspect your pool and make recommendations in two areas. First, any defects that NEED to be repaired and second, recommendations they may make to improve the function and appearance. After a few of these meetings you'll start to see a pattern and that should help you settle on a scope. Along the way you'll also be "pre-qualifying" the contractors. Have a list of questions like:

    How long have you been in business?
    Have you done any pools in my area?
    Are there any aspects of this work that you've not done before?
    How long have your crews been working for you?
    What is the most difficult part of this job?

    You'll get answers and importantly you'll decide if your personality is compatible with the builder which is very important. After doing this you'll be ready to get quotes. The contractors may give you some pricing as you conduct these inspections and that's helpful but not a competitive pricing process. There are lots of superb contractors that really know their reputation is all they have and they are truly trustworthy. Problem is there are also the opposite out there and you can't tell which is which. References help but in my experience there are many contradictions even with this.

    After you have a written scope of work pick the top 3 bidders. Then send them an invitation to bid and tell them only 3 bidders are bidding. This does a couple of things for you. First it lets them know they're competing so they need to sharpen their pencil, also they know they're not "bidding against the entire world" so they have a reasonable chance to get the work. They'll work harder to get this job because they've got a better chance. And lastly, you'll be seen as a high quality owner that may not be a pool expert but he definitely has his act together. Most good contractors like good owners.

    If you have a good scope you'll have bids that are easily comparable. Make a list of work items and make sure the bidders fill out each line's price. If they won't provide enough detail for you to analyze the work disqualify them and get another bid. Also for areas where the scope cannot be defined (such as loose tiles) have each estimate the area needing repair and price any extra repair as a unit price. Then you can normalize the price base on the average of the bidders and their unit prices. Lastly, watch out for vague, one-way terms or conditions in their price. Items like "minor surface cracks and hazing". What in the world does that mean and who decides what minor is? If all bidders use this term you should at least get some definition of "minor" in clear measurable terms like 1/32" and smaller or 3/8" deep or something like that.

    I hope this helps and please feel free to ask me any follow-up questions.

    Chris
    Last edited by setsailsoon; 05-22-2016 at 06:40 AM. Reason: typo
    -Chris-
    2013 In-ground plaster/pebble, screen enclosed, 12000 gal w/ Jandy 2 speed 1 HP pump, Jandy CS 200 cartridge filter, 800 gal spa w/ 1.5 HP booster pump, Solar heater, 2 LED lights in pool 1 light in spa, TF-100 test kit, The PoolCleaner Next Generation, Jandy RS-12 Automation system with iAqualink 2.0 control, Separate Hayward/Goldline Solar control

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    Will be hard to accomplish on Whidbey Island as services are few
    But will give it a shot
    thank you
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: how can resurface bids be so different

    I just got the exact same bid variation on a home AC/Heat pump system. One was $14,400 and the other $31,500. Same system. Contractors are all over the place sometimes, you never know what's going on behind the scenes driving their bid. Low on work/over worked, underbidded the last project ect ect. That can make a big impact on the bid.

    Needless to say, we opted for the $14k system and they did a great job!
    My Restoration Thread: Making an old pool NEW again

    16x32/28,000 gallons/Twin 400GPH waterfalls off stone faced diving platform/1,200 perimeter LED lighs/Sand filter/2hp Pentair/VERA Automation/Southern NH

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