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Thread: Day 6 of new water and using BBB

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    Friday I drained and replaced 12,000 of my 15,000 gallons in order to get a fresh start and get rid of a very high cya.
    I've been using pool math and feel I have a pretty good handle on the system and really appreciate this site and the great help.
    Here are my latest numbers from yesterday afternoon.

    FC 3.0
    CC 0
    PH 7.6 it has been rising each day on its own
    TA 130
    CH 150
    cya 50

    my question is related to the cya relationship to the chlorine.
    I've been using 4-6 for my FC min/target
    it seems I've been losing 3-4 ppm each day which concerns me since the water is cold and nobody is swimming.
    Pool math suggested about 96 oz of 8.25% bleach so I just put the whole 121oz jug in. I did an overnight test and saw no loss so I don't think I have anything using it up and the CC level of 0 would confirm that?
    i bought the bleach at Target. Store brand. Maybe it's weak?
    I think I need a little clarification about the cya relationship. I understand the higher my cya is the more bleach I need. But should the higher cya level help preserve the chlorine? In other words should the level hold better with higher cya? If I up the target FC to 10 should a loss of 3 ppm per day, does it make sense I would be at 3 in two days? That's just an example to try and understand what's going on.

    thank you all very much!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    You have a good amount of info correct, but with some minor corrections here & there. First your current test readings .... Your are probably aware that your FC is low at the moment because your CYA of 50 demands a target FC of 6, and never below 4. That's why you're here. So continue to watch that closely. Also your plaster is very low which could compromise your pool's plaster. So you may want to raise that soon. The fact you passed the OCLT and have no CC is great. So it would be fair to assume any FC lost is from normal daily organic cleansing and also the sun. Ideally we hope to lose no more than 4 ppm of FC per day. When water is algae-free and we lose more than 4 FC, then we look at CYA to see if the sun is too strong in that location which may demand a higher CYA for protection. I don't think you should be having that problem at the moment. A CYA of 50 is pretty high for your location I would think. The higher CYA only protects the amount of FC that can bond to it, so that's why the ratio increases proportionally together. Someone with a really high CYA of 90 can't just have less FC or expect what they have to last longer. By contrast, someone with a low CYA of 30 and exceptionally high FC will lose much of that extra FC quicker because it has nothing to bond to. It's a marriage of sorts. The main reason we increase CYA is simply because the sun's UV is too intense in that geographical area. Me for example, I stay around 60-70 because of our blistering summers and I get full sun all day. I hope this makes some sense.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Pool Tool's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    The higher the CYA the more it will protect the FC up to a certain level. Once above that level the FC is destroyed fairly quickly. Also the FC loss is not linear, so for example you would lose a higher rate if at 10 vs. if starting at 7 while maintaining a constant CYA level. The goal is to raise the minimum amount above the target to ensure that it doesn't drop below the min FC based on the frequency of your chlorine additions.

    As you get a feel for your pool you might find it beneficial to raise the CYA if your FC loss remains that high.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    You are getting it

    With your CYA of 50 and the amount of sun your getting that amount of loss is on the high side..

    A couple things to check, You have done an OCLT and 0 was lost so that is good....

    1. Do another CYA test and pour back and forth from a 25ml cylinder to the CYA test and back again.. do this as many times as you can, the more you do it the better at the test you become. just to see if maybe your at 30 and not 50 (this is the hardest test)

    2. test your FC.. the same way you have been using poolmath but now you are going to do a test.. use your FC now as 3, so put 3 in now and target 6 (for CYA of 50) now with the pump on wait 30 minutes and test FC, you should be at 6, if you are at 5 or 7 your pool volume is probably off in gallons.

    Now, if your CYA is 50 your target is 6 not 8.. if you have been taking it to 8 it is going to burn off faster or about the same as if you went to FC6... Another thing that caught my eye was "does it make sense I would be at 3 in two days" with this system you need to add bleach every day, try doing it at the same time or close to the same time each day that way you know about what levels you should be at..

    I hope this helps

    - - - Updated - - -

    let me add, you PH is rising because of your TA being high, it will come down each time you bring your PH down using MA but it can be slow, you can speed it up following this Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    Thank you all. My example of bringing it to 10 was just a what if. I am testing everyday. I've been adding a whole gallon everyday. I will test 30 min after adding this afternoon and put exactly what it says to get to 6. I'm affraid I will be below 4 by the same time tomorrow. Perhaps the pool volume is wrong. It's a free form shape so pretty hard to calculate. I know I got 12,200 gallons Friday. That was metered from the water delivery company. I used all my geometry skills and those of my 15 year old honors math student son to try and leave 3,000 gallons after draining. Perhaps we were off by a thousand gallons or two? I will test this afternoon which I expect to see about a 3. I will use pool math add to 6, test 30 minutes later and see where I am. Then test before suns up tomorrow to double check overnight loss and then see where I am same time tomorrow. If I'm below 4 perhaps I am reading the cya test wrong? It is very difficult to determine exactly when that black dot disapears. Is that the way all the test kits work for cya? I have the Taylor K-2006
    I know the CH is low and put 5lbs of calcium chloride in twice (10lbs total) I will add more, I bought a 25 lb bucket of it. The guy at the pool store was a little miffed when I told him I don't need a water test. I'm doing it myself now. Haha! Love it����
    as always, thank you, thank you, thank you!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    That sounds like a great plan
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    CYA test is tricky. Make sure to be outside on a bight day with sun at your back. The dot need to disappear. To compare FC usage .... my pool is just under 18K. I feed it 1/2 gallon of 8.25% bleach every day. That's about 2.5 ppm usage each day. That's where you want to be ideally. If you lose too much FC each day, it's either algae/organics, the sun, or both. We never want algae/organics in that equation.

    No water testing at the pool store. Love it!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    I'm having fun. Learning a lot. Saving a lot on chemicals, but I am spending a lot more on testing! I already used up most of what came with the kit! Haha!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    That will slow-down in time and the reagents will last much longer. For FC testing, are you using the 10 ML sample size?
    10ml sample, multiply drop count by 0.5 (standard method)
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    I've been using the 25ml but as somebody else recommend also, I will switch to the 10ml and save!
    I have to admit it is kind of fun and I can't believe I used the old way for 10 years! Every few years they told me my disolved solids were to high and I needed new water. In fact I just had huge amounts of cya. Their testing shows cya good up to 150!
    Anybody want to buy 59lbs of tabs? Haha. Not on this site! Maybe Craigslist?
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    Any issue with adding calcium chloride to raise hardness and bleach within a few minutes of each other?
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    No problem. Separate each by about 30 minutes. On occasion, increasing may cause a little cloudiness, but that should resolve itself in a day or two if it even happens.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    I added what should have brought my FC up to 6 and it got up to 5.5. ( the ch hardness isn't dropping as fast as it should either) I'm thinking my 15,000 gallon volume is a little light?
    I did this around 4:00pm yesterday. At 4:00am this morning my FC was 4.5. No CC. Is it possible I lost 1ppm by the time it got dark? I think I will change my volume in pool math to 17,000 gallons and see what happens. I'll do another overnight test tonight but start it after dark?
    Thanks!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    That is exactly how we get closer on the amount of water we have... great job
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    Day 6. Things were going pretty well. My TA was 145 ph 7.4. I dosed the chlorine up to 7 last night after dark and checked this morning before dawn. No chlorine loss!! I seem to be losing 3ppm per day so I changed my target to 7 (my cya seems to be about 45 now, I let the water warm up and I think I got a better reading) and I will test tonight after dark but at 3:00pm I'm still at 6. I'm happy with that.
    Heres my main question for today. I thought I should lower my TA as my PH kept creeping up. So I plugged it into pool math and decided to add 48oz of Muriatic acid and do the aeration thing. Well after adding the acid my TA is now 60 and my ph is still 7.2. I have a fountain going but should I add baking soda and Borax? Or let it go?
    Im surprised how much the acid changed things! I'm learning a lot and actually having fun instead of feeling like a slave to this pool! Thank you in advance for what I'm sure will be good advice!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Pool Tool's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    Did you test the "warmed up" sample to get a TA of 60?? It should have only dropped by 13 ppm. The only test to do on a warmed sample is the CYA. All others should be done as soon as possible.

    I would restest TA and see what you get. Great news on everything else.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: 4 days into BBB, a few questions please

    I got the 45cya with the water sitting in the sun for about an hour. The water is 63degrees. The air is about 70 today. The other tests were done right away. I'll wait an hour and test TA and PH again. You think it will come up on its own? I feel as though I over did the Muriatic acid? My CSI was good all along until now. Now it's a -.77
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Day 6 of new water and using BBB

    I merged them. Please keep related questions together. Thanks, jblizzle

    I hope it's ok that I started a new thread? I felt like I had too much going on with the last one?
    this is day 6 since dumping 80% of my water and basically starting over with this awesome system and wonderful support.
    I'm really dialing down the amount of bleach I need to stay within the minimum and target range.
    Here are my latest numbers:
    FC 5.0 I haven't added bleach since last night. I'm having no overnight loss and no CC on the test
    PH 7.2 I added 50 oz of Muriatic acid 4 hours ago in an attempt to lower my TA
    TA 150 right after adding acid it was 60 came right back to almost where it was before acid. I am running a fountain in hopes of boosting the PH. Should I just add Borax????
    CH is 250. Awesome!
    cya after dumping 80% of my water seems to be a lovely 45!
    mainly I would like to know if the fountain will work? Should I add borax? Should I worry about the TA level?
    again, I can not thank you all enough for running this site and answering so many questions. I've had this pool 10 years and thought i understood it. I had no idea what I didn't know!! Thank you!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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    Re: Day 6 of new water and using BBB

    No no no, don't add Borax.

    High levels of borates stabilize the TA, and you'll never be able to drive it down. 7.2 is just fine for what you want. Aeration will accelerate the pH rise, if you're in a big hurry. Otherwise, it will come up on its own soon enough. I really doubt the TA came up from 60 back to 150. More likely, the acid wasn't mixed well enough into the water.

    You might as well run everything and get the fresh clean water running through everything.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    E Murph's Avatar
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    Re: Day 6 of new water and using BBB

    That makes sense about the 60 reading. Should I leave the TA where it is? Or add more muriatic acid to try and get it down? I'm very happy with everything else and it seems I'm settling into about half a gallon of bleach per day! Cheap and easy!!!
    Thank you!
    15,000gal, IG plaster, DE filter, Centurian 2HP pump, Raypak propane heater, built in 2005, Taylor K-2006 test kit.

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