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Thread: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

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    Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Hello to All,

    Wanted to determine if anyone has learned of successful way to suppress electrical surges that could negatively impact a VSP?

    My current set-up are two 200amp services in my garage, to where a 70amp breaker comes off one of them to supply current to my pool controller. The pool controller then has 6 breakers that service the various devices. Specifically, a Sq-D double pole 20amp GCFI breaker provide the sole power to my Hayward SP3400VSP. My PS-8 controller has no more breaker slots.

    So, I was seeking advice from those that have had a successful campaign in protecting their VSP from electrical surges/spikes. Also, all my equipment is under warranty from Hayward for a period of 3 yrs; install date is Jan 2015.

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Regards,
    tstex
    InGround 15K gal, 18'x30' 3.5' to 5.5' depth w/ 9'x9' spillover Spa, Pebblesheen w/ Travertine, Hayward 3 HP VSP, Hayward C4030 Cartridge, Hayward 1.5 HP for 2 Scupper columns, ProLogic, PL-PS-8 Panel, Hayward 400K BTU Heater, 3 ColorLogic LED, Spa Blower, TF-100 w S-Stick, QC Tiger Shark, Autofill

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Panel mount surge protection, good ground connection for you electrical panel, ensure ground and neutral are bonded in only one location. The last one isn't an easy thing.
    How many welders are you running with 400 amps worth of service?
    Chuck-
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Neither of the 200amp service boxes are full to capacity...I just wanted to provide you w an accurate picture. However, the pool panel is at capacity of and there are no more slots.
    InGround 15K gal, 18'x30' 3.5' to 5.5' depth w/ 9'x9' spillover Spa, Pebblesheen w/ Travertine, Hayward 3 HP VSP, Hayward C4030 Cartridge, Hayward 1.5 HP for 2 Scupper columns, ProLogic, PL-PS-8 Panel, Hayward 400K BTU Heater, 3 ColorLogic LED, Spa Blower, TF-100 w S-Stick, QC Tiger Shark, Autofill

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    I have THIS surge protector installed right into my Easy Touch automation system. Very short leads connect this to both hot wires, neutral and ground. This protects my VS pump, automation system and heater. I have another protector in my main house panel.
    38000 Gal, IG, Plaster, 20' x 40' x 10', Attached Raised Spa, Intelliflo VS 3 HP (011018), Pentair Quad DE 60 Filter, Raypak (Rheem) 400,000 BTU (407a low Nox), Easy Touch 8 upgrade, Screenlogic 2 with wireless, IS-4 Spa Side Remote, Stenner 45MPHP10 w/15 gal tank, Intellibrite 5g (3), Dolphin Triton Plus robot with PRO remote, Water Tech Catfish handheld vacuum for spa, TF100 with SpeedStir.

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    I sell surge protection for a living.. unfortunately the surge protection I sell costs more than all my pump equipment...

    For an inexpensive surge protection device that is actually worth while see if you can source a Josyln Transend unit. It is made by the manufacture that builds the highest quality commercial surge protection available.

    That intermatic unit doesn't look like its UL1449 4th edition which is the current standard for SPD's. I would steer clear of any product which doesn't have the UL mark when it comes to surge protection.

    edit...

    Just realized the Intermatic unit is also lacking Line to Ground modes... Line to Line surge is pretty useless which this unit utilizes
    Gunite Pool/Spa, CLI Caribbean blue crystal stone smooth, Pentair 3hp Intellifo VS, Pentair Quad DE Filter, Pentair 400k BTU Heater, KK Prowler 820, Pentair PSL4 controler with Screenlogic wifi, Inline Chlorinator, Pentair 1.5hp Spa Blower, TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speed Stir. My 2016 Pool Build

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    This one seems to be used by quite a few members and has UL1449
    Square D Panel Mounted Single Phase Type 1 Surge Protective Device-SDSA1175 - The Home Depot

    How about it bradj?
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    The one I use in my house panel is this one http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...PD80/203540660
    All of my appliances in my home have VFD's, even the circulator pump for my baseboard heat is variable speed. It's the slightly larger version of the one pooldv linked to. This one also has phase to ground protection as well as phase to phase.
    Chuck-
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Quote Originally Posted by bradj View Post
    I sell surge protection for a living.. unfortunately the surge protection I sell costs more than all my pump equipment...

    For an inexpensive surge protection device that is actually worth while see if you can source a Josyln Transend unit. It is made by the manufacture that builds the highest quality commercial surge protection available.

    That intermatic unit doesn't look like its UL1449 4th edition which is the current standard for SPD's. I would steer clear of any product which doesn't have the UL mark when it comes to surge protection.

    edit...

    Just realized the Intermatic unit is also lacking Line to Ground modes... Line to Line surge is pretty useless which this unit utilizes
    Out of these 2 which one is better ? thanks for the help

    Eaton Whole House Surge Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1 - The Home Depot

    This one is the 3rd edition, how much different from the 4th edition...
    Square D Home Electronics Protective Device (HEPD)-HEPD80 - The Home Depot
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    They both offer the same class of protection, its not on the HD website but both are UL 1449 3rd edition listed as type 2 surge protection. the Eaton one has more than double the surge current rating it connects to a 50amp dual pole breaker. The Square D one connects to a 20amp dual pole breaker. I couldn't tell you what the difference between 3rd and 4th edition.
    Chuck-
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Between the Eaton and SQD unit, I'd choose SQD. It is type 1 listed which mean it can be installed upstream of the service disconnect without requiring a circuit breaker.

    The fact that the Eaton unit requires a 50A breaker does not mean it has twice the surge current rating. The Eaton unit has 54kA per mode of surge current rating and the SQD is 40kA per mode. Both are UL listed, Eaton to the 3rd edition but that isn't a major deal. The huge change in SPD performance occurred from 2nd to 3rd edition requirements.

    For what its worth I just ordered this one: http://www.tnbpowersolutions.com/sit...ta%20Sheet.pdf





    Quote Originally Posted by cowboycasey View Post
    Out of these 2 which one is better ? thanks for the help

    Eaton Whole House Surge Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1 - The Home Depot

    This one is the 3rd edition, how much different from the 4th edition...
    Square D Home Electronics Protective Device (HEPD)-HEPD80 - The Home Depot
    Gunite Pool/Spa, CLI Caribbean blue crystal stone smooth, Pentair 3hp Intellifo VS, Pentair Quad DE Filter, Pentair 400k BTU Heater, KK Prowler 820, Pentair PSL4 controler with Screenlogic wifi, Inline Chlorinator, Pentair 1.5hp Spa Blower, TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speed Stir. My 2016 Pool Build

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    This is great information gentlemen. I really appreciate everyone's insight.

    So based on my configuration, I guess I should install this inside the panel in my garage that feeds my pool equipment, correct? Also, I've read that installing the SPD at the highest point in the panel is the best bc it has less wire to transfer any surges or spikes, is this a good recommendation or not?

    Next, I have a question that may or may not be answerable. Has anyone used a SPD long enough to be able to tell there is a difference on the longevity of the pool equip and/or VSP? Of course, a lightening hit removes all the odds, but I thought I would at least propose this question as part of a cost-benefit.

    Finally, does installing a SPD in any way cause issues w pool equipment still under warranty? Has any PB or manufacturer [Pentair, H-ward, Jandy, etc] declined honoring a warranty claim bc a SPD was installed?

    Again, thanks for the feedback...I hope this can benefit a lot of forum users.

    Regards, tstex
    InGround 15K gal, 18'x30' 3.5' to 5.5' depth w/ 9'x9' spillover Spa, Pebblesheen w/ Travertine, Hayward 3 HP VSP, Hayward C4030 Cartridge, Hayward 1.5 HP for 2 Scupper columns, ProLogic, PL-PS-8 Panel, Hayward 400K BTU Heater, 3 ColorLogic LED, Spa Blower, TF-100 w S-Stick, QC Tiger Shark, Autofill

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    just out of curiosity what did that one you ordered cost and where did you order it from.
    Chuck-
    15x30 Above ground, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Quote Originally Posted by tstex View Post
    This is great information gentlemen. I really appreciate everyone's insight.

    So based on my configuration, I guess I should install this inside the panel in my garage that feeds my pool equipment, correct? Also, I've read that installing the SPD at the highest point in the panel is the best bc it has less wire to transfer any surges or spikes, is this a good recommendation or not?

    Next, I have a question that may or may not be answerable. Has anyone used a SPD long enough to be able to tell there is a difference on the longevity of the pool equip and/or VSP? Of course, a lightening hit removes all the odds, but I thought I would at least propose this question as part of a cost-benefit.

    Finally, does installing a SPD in any way cause issues w pool equipment still under warranty? Has any PB or manufacturer [Pentair, H-ward, Jandy, etc] declined honoring a warranty claim bc a SPD was installed?

    Again, thanks for the feedback...I hope this can benefit a lot of forum users.

    Regards, tstex
    Location of the SPD has a lot to do with how well it will perform. The Surge protection device runs in parallel to your connected loads. The longer the wiring from the panel to the SPD the greater the impedance will be in the circuit and the clamping voltage will increase. It is possible to have wiring be so long that the SPD could provide zero protection. To say installing the SPD in the top, side, bottom etc.. as a best practice is hard to say because panels are built differently from manufacture. You want to pick a location that will allow you to have the shortest wire lengths to the phase, neutral and ground connections. Do not be tempted to coil up the extra wire.. cut it down to the shortest length possible to make the connection.

    Regarding the value prop of SPD. I don't have any practical experience with SPD on pool equipment. In commercial facilities we deployed a layered surge protection strategy(service entrance, distribution boards, panel boards). Within a facility I have seen transient events destroy only portions of a facility which were not determined to be critical during the construction phase and so Surge Protection was omitted. The other portions of the facility with proper SPD protection had no damage.

    Not all SPD's are created equal... but as a rule of thumb its typically better to have something cheap than nothing at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    just out of curiosity what did that one you ordered cost and where did you order it from.
    I'm the manufactures rep of the equipment so I get it direct from the manufacture. It would typically cost about 4 times what a Pentair VS pump costs These are all commercial products and you'd need to contact a local electrical distributor to get pricing. This unit has a special feature which is a Selinium rectifier. This device protects from overvoltages, all electronic equipment and SPD are easily destroyed in sustained overvoltage conditions. With this SPD installed at the line side of my house everything will be well protected.

    I'm installing it on my main service panel to the house and I'll probably put their smaller Current Guard Compact on my pool sub panel at a later date. http://www.tnbpowersolutions.com/sit...ta%20Sheet.pdf
    Gunite Pool/Spa, CLI Caribbean blue crystal stone smooth, Pentair 3hp Intellifo VS, Pentair Quad DE Filter, Pentair 400k BTU Heater, KK Prowler 820, Pentair PSL4 controler with Screenlogic wifi, Inline Chlorinator, Pentair 1.5hp Spa Blower, TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speed Stir. My 2016 Pool Build

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    I have the power company's surge protector installed on their meter. They warranty appliance motors but not electronics. I have separate surge protectors for all TV electronics but nothing yet for pool.

    Do you think this power company on meter device helps at all?

    If there is a big lightning storm approaching I can shut power to the pool equipment.
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Following. We have a power company surge protector installed on the house meter also...

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Great info here! I am about to install a new VS speed pump. Unfortunately I fried my old single speed last Fall. (Or maybe fortunately... the new pump will be much better.)

    After reading up on this issue, I'm certain I would like to add a good surge protector to my system. The problem I'm having is that my small panel at the pump is a Square D and the main house panel is a Siemens. I've seen lots of good recommendation for the Square D, but not much for the Siemens. I've read multiple threads stating that having a surge protector that matches the panel brand is important. But, my question is, does this only apply to those that install straight into a breaker slot? If it is the type that mounts externally to the breaker panel, is brand as critical?

    Could I install this one:

    Square D Home Electronics Protective Device (HEPD)-HEPD80 - The Home Depot

    That has been referenced in several posts on my Siemens panel for whole house protection?

    A few more questions...

    Is there any great difference between the protection provided by the external mounted vs. slot mounted protectors?

    Is there enough difference between the Square D mentioned above (Square D Panel Mounted Single Phase Type 1 Surge Protective Device-SDSA1175 - The Home Depot) and the Intermatic I've seen mentioned (Intermatic PS3000 Pool and Spa Surge Protective Device - - Amazon.com) to warrant spending the extra on the Intermatic?

    Finally...

    My equipment panel (the Square D one) is quite small and has no main power switch, just the slots for individual breakers. Just want to make sure that these breaker box surge protectors will work on this type of panel.

    Here's a pic of the panel

    IMG_9094.jpg

    Thanks!

    Ken
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    The surge protector does not have to match the panel brand unless you are using a breaker with built-in surge protection, such as the Square D SurgeBreaker. These that mount to the outside of the box are all generic.

    The HEPD80 can be mounted to any brand of panel.
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    Between the SQD and the intermatic I would go with the SQD one. Easy to install and is indoor/outdoor rated. I may be biased as that is the one I have in my main panel at my house.

    The other question would be if it's over kill to have another one on the sub panel for the pool.
    Chuck-
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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    "If there is a big lightning storm approaching I can shut power to the pool equipment."

    Correct me if I am wrong, but shutting down the power [breaking circuit at main house panel to pool panel by flipping breaker, or breaker to VSP at pool panel], would prob not stop the damage from lightening or a near lightening hit. You would have to disconnect the device [VSP] from it's wiring, yes? I had a lightening hit at the ranch that hit a tree as primary, then traveled to a nearby shed, blew the 110 light switch cover plate to small to fragments and blew the 110 switch box into thirds w only the screw holding 1/3 of box to cedar post. The actual switch was semi-melted. Then it traveled about 140ft undergrd thru the gray conduit to the sub-panel in the garage [this is then connected to main panel on house]. The breaker at the subpanel was already off [I turn-off the 3 breakers to: the pavilion, sheds {one in ques here} and the one to the 20gal water heater in garage when I am either gone or not using them]. The shed breaker was fried and would not turn on, so I had to replace it.

    So, if you take a lightening hit and it's near your panel and not 140FT awawy, chances are it's not going to be good. I would suggest that's trying to manage the exception rather than the norm of customary surges & spikes on residential systems is prob not the way to go.

    This is a good thread and I believe my plan is shaping-up here..thank you, tstex
    InGround 15K gal, 18'x30' 3.5' to 5.5' depth w/ 9'x9' spillover Spa, Pebblesheen w/ Travertine, Hayward 3 HP VSP, Hayward C4030 Cartridge, Hayward 1.5 HP for 2 Scupper columns, ProLogic, PL-PS-8 Panel, Hayward 400K BTU Heater, 3 ColorLogic LED, Spa Blower, TF-100 w S-Stick, QC Tiger Shark, Autofill

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    Re: Protecting Variable Speed Pumps

    These are for protecting from surges, not lightning. I don't think a power bolt that can travel from the clouds to the ground (or vice versa) is going to be stopped by a small surge protector or a gap of a fraction of an inch.

    Not that shutting it down might not have some benefit, it just won't save from a lightning hit.

    Pretty soon (as in later today), I will be able to shut mine down from my phone from anywhere I have internet access.
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