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Thread: Help me! Swamp...

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Help me! Swamp...

    Hi
    I have a 40,000 gallon pool. When I opened it this year it is green like a swamp. I just joined this forum and I am impressed by how helpful everybody is.
    I want to start shocking my pool. I District the Walker today I tested the water today and the

    FC 0
    pH 7
    CYA is 0

    I need to shock the pool. My question is should I use liquid chlorine or dichloro? I am thinking of starting with dichloro as that will increase the CYA levels also. The chlorox brand dichloro I bought states it has 58% dichloro. Based on pool calculator, if the calculator tells me to use 10 lbs of dichloro do I need to increase it to compensate for the fact that my dichloro is only 58% active per lb....does that mean I need to add 4 extra lbs to compensate for the fact that my shock bags contain only 58% dichloro per bag?
    Please help!
    Thank you!

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Welcome to TFP!!! What test kit(s) are you using? Is the pump and filter working?
    If I was effective, and your pool makes you smile, please make me smile and CLICK HERE to Become a TFP Supporter!
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Welcome to TFP

    Poolmath is great isn't it.. Could you post up your number's and let us know the test kit you're using.. it will give us some numbers to work with

    FC
    pH
    TA
    CH
    CYA
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
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  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    The chemistry is from the pool shop. I have a sand filter and pump is running 24/7


    Quote Originally Posted by BattleOfYakima View Post
    Welcome to TFP!!! What test kit(s) are you using? Is the pump and filter working?
    - - - Updated - - -

    FC 0
    PH 7
    TA 93
    CYA 0
    CH don't know....its a vinyl in ground pool, approx 35000-40000 gallons




    Quote Originally Posted by cowboycasey View Post
    Welcome to TFP

    Poolmath is great isn't it.. Could you post up your number's and let us know the test kit you're using.. it will give us some numbers to work with

    FC
    pH
    TA
    CH
    CYA
    thanks

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Pool store testing is not reliable. There is a link in my signature to trusted test kits.
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
    Test Kits - Pool Math - Chlorine/CYA/Target/Slam Chart

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Quote Originally Posted by 40000gallons View Post
    My question is should I use liquid chlorine or dichloro? I am thinking of starting with dichloro as that will increase the CYA levels also. The chlorox brand dichloro I bought states it has 58% dichloro. Based on pool calculator, if the calculator tells me to use 10 lbs of dichloro do I need to increase it to compensate for the fact that my dichloro is only 58% active per lb....does that mean I need to add 4 extra lbs to compensate for the fact that my shock bags contain only 58% dichloro per bag?
    I'm getting 7 lbs Dichlor? How to you reach your number?

    I recommend using liquid chlorine instead. You can get CYA/Stabilizer at walmart or other big box stores - HTH is a good brand for about $15 for 4lbs.

    Once you add your chlorine, please report back your FC/CC findings. The CYA being at zero is a concern to me.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    But until you get your own test kit and report the numbers from it, we can't be sure what's going on.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Thank you. I got 7 lbs also. I used 10 lbs as an example. So if the calculator states 7 lbs, and my shock packet has 58% dichlor, I should put 11 lbs right? ( just trying to understand how the calculator works).
    Also, the pool guy said not to put stabilizer in and to shock first. He said after you shock, you will need to vacuum to waste and you will loose a lot of CYA that way. He also recommended floc prior to shock+Algecide
    . I am very confused .... I don't know how genuine the advice is and how much it is to push chemicals....

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    You need to SLAM. Until you get a proper kit, I would read this article over and over Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain

    I would suggest removing as much "stuff" (old leaves, etc) as possible, then running the pump on recirculate and adding a bottle of bleach every day.

    Also could you add your pool info to your signature please! Thank you.

    edit: Also, pool store and TFP don't mix, so I wouldn't go back there for chemicals or advice
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    I think I understand your question about percentage and weight of dichlor when using PoolMath. If it says to add 16oz of dichlor it means one package of 16oz dichlor, ignoring the percentage. It accounts for that already.

    It lists bleach/liquid shock by percentage since it varies. It does the same for calhypo granular shock that can vary in percentage greatly. If there is only one dichlor, then all dichlor has the same percentage breakdowns and you can trust PoolMath is going the math for you, just add the weight of dichlor packages indicated.

    I really have to agree with the other posters, the pool store testing is almost always off enough to cost you unneeded money on chemicals and way more time and energy beating what ails your pool.

    Please consider returning all the dichlor, ordering a TFP recommenced test kit, whether from TFTestKits, Amazon, or even that PoolShop that loves selling you overpriced chemicals. I got 4lbs of HTH CYA/stabilizer from WalMart pool section in garden center for $16 and had it dissolved overnight!!! That also had 10% pool essentials liquid pool shock (just 10% bleach) for only $2.50 per gallon! Only thing I go to a pool shop for is Muriatic Acid to lower ph and that's only because lowes and home depot don't carry the pure strong stuff in my city. They do in my other home, and it is almost half the cost of the pool store!!!

    It's up to you what you do, but if you want your pool to stop being a mystery and become a very small maintenance task, essentially trouble free, you need to pick a recommenced test kit. There is a reason that public pools are required to test using the treats TFP suggests... They are the only way to know what's really going on, and what really needs to be added.
    If I was effective, and your pool makes you smile, please make me smile and CLICK HERE to Become a TFP Supporter!
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Hi. Thank you all for he suggestions. I started the SLAM today. I will buy the kit as recommended by all of you . Should I leave the pump at filter or recirculate during the SLAM ? Thanks !

  12. Back To Top    #12
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Greetings and welcome, 40,0000.

    Hopefully you won't have this problem because you don't have the right test kit if you do, but sometimes when both FC and CYA are both at zero, particularly in a swamp, a condition is created that causes ammonia as a byproduct of a type of bacteria that consumes cya.
    The ammonia, in turn, fights the chlorine and causes it to zero out very quickly.

    If you find that adding that shock just keeps zeroing out, please hold up and consider getting a TFTkit or Taylor k2006 specifically if you'd like to use the TFP method of problem solving. Each can read high levels of FC accurately by drop kit AND can read CYA, which is necessary to safely address ammonia through oxidization, not to mention general slam recovery

    Many people turn to TFP "after" their attempts with less accurate/robust test kits and a failure to clear just using "shock" alone as a product instead of a process...and this phenom is one of the reasons.

    TFP is founded on research that predicts the right "kill zone" for Free Chlorine in a ratio to CYA. But working with that ratio requires being able to accurately measure changes at home -- both high levels of FC above 10 and confirmed CYA. So without one of the test kits and very current, reliable readings, most TFPers will be afraid to contribute much assistance to a thread for fear of unintended consequences.

    For example, I would not have been comfortable telling you to put dichloro in the way the pool store did, because I know that if you have ammonia that consumes the FC right away, you'd be left with the condition of possibly "feeding" that bacteria its cya to make more ammonia BUT I also wouldn't be comfortable telling someone to use unstabilized products (eg liquid chlorine without cya) without first putting in 30 ppm of cya to protect over chlorinating and risking liner, equipment, etc.

    When a user has a reliable home test kit that accurately reads FC, if both their cya and FC started at zero and the water is swampy, what we usually advise at the start of a slam is as follows:


    Diagnosing:
    1. Test CYA level and record result
    2. With pump running, dose FC to Shock (SLAM) per level per Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart, then retest FC after 10 minutes. If FC level drops by more than 50%, then proceed with treatment for ammonia.

    Treatment for Ammonia:
    1. Begin a SLAM and dose FC up to SLAM level. Do not add additional CYA at this point.
    2. Retest FC at 10-minute intervals.
    a. If FC loss is greater than 50%, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level and continue retesting FC @ 10-minute intervals.
    b. IF FC loss is 50% or less, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level. Go to Step 3.
    3. If CYA is below 30 ppm, add enough CYA to bring level up to 30 ppm.
    4. Continue SLAM as directed in the SLAM article until the SLAM Criteria of Done are met. Test as directed in the SLAM article - no longer need to test FC at 10 minute increments at this point.
    This approach prevents a poster from wasting money, time, and patience throwing in repeated bags of shock per the pool store and zeroing back out and wondering why the heck they can't clear their pool

    So please let us know if you ultimately decide to get a test kit, and if you have any problems going forward. I just wanted to make sure you understood the foundation of TFP and an example of how we are able to give effective advice remotely
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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  13. Back To Top    #13
    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    It depends on the load of stuff going through it. If the pressure increases quite a bit and you are not home to lower it you should use recirculate. If you are home to watch and care for the filter put it on filter.

    Take and share a picture of your pool. That will help you see the progress as it happens.

    Right now you are flying blind. I would not add too much to your pool until the test kit gets there. Which one did your order? I hope it was the TF-100XL since you are starting with a swamp.

    Kim

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampwoman View Post
    Greetings and welcome, 40,0000.

    Hopefully you won't have this problem because you don't have the right test kit if you do, but sometimes when both FC and CYA are both at zero, particularly in a swamp, a condition is created that causes ammonia as a byproduct of a type of bacteria that consumes cya.
    The ammonia, in turn, fights the chlorine and causes it to zero out very quickly.

    If you find that adding that shock just keeps zeroing out, please hold up and consider getting a TFTkit or Taylor k2006 specifically if you'd like to use the TFP method of problem solving. Each can read high levels of FC accurately by drop kit AND can read CYA, which is necessary to safely address ammonia through oxidization, not to mention general slam recovery

    Many people turn to TFP "after" their attempts with less accurate/robust test kits and a failure to clear just using "shock" alone as a product instead of a process...and this phenom is one of the reasons.

    TFP is founded on research that predicts the right "kill zone" for Free Chlorine in a ratio to CYA. But working with that ratio requires being able to accurately measure changes at home -- both high levels of FC above 10 and confirmed CYA. So without one of the test kits and very current, reliable readings, most TFPers will be afraid to contribute much assistance to a thread for fear of unintended consequences.

    For example, I would not have been comfortable telling you to put dichloro in the way the pool store did, because I know that if you have ammonia that consumes the FC right away, you'd be left with the condition of possibly "feeding" that bacteria its cya to make more ammonia BUT I also wouldn't be comfortable telling someone to use unstabilized products (eg liquid chlorine without cya) without first putting in 30 ppm of cya to protect over chlorinating and risking liner, equipment, etc.

    When a user has a reliable home test kit that accurately reads FC, if both their cya and FC started at zero and the water is swampy, what we usually advise at the start of a slam is as follows:


    This approach prevents a poster from wasting money, time, and patience throwing in repeated bags of shock per the pool store and zeroing back out and wondering why the heck they can't clear their pool

    So please let us know if you ultimately decide to get a test kit, and if you have any problems going forward. I just wanted to make sure you understood the foundation of TFP and an example of how we are able to give effective advice remotely

    In for the WIN! ^^^^^^^^THIS and all of this!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Thank you very much everybody! I have learnt more in 2 days than I knew in the last 2 years of pool ownership. I wish I had know about this awesome community earlier and maybe I could have prevented the swamp from forming.
    now the update in the last 24 hours. I have a big stock of pool products, which I don't think the pool guy will take back. So I decided to use them and stock up on the products that have been recommended.

    this is what I did last night:
    1. I couldn't find CYA in my local Walmart. I did have dichloro lying around, so I threw in 10 lbs last night.

    2. Today morning I took the sample to the pool shop and got the following numbers ( I know I need to get the kit ...I promise I will order it as soon as I figure out which one to get and the link on the website where I can buy the kit.....till then please help me with the pool shop numbers).

    CYA 10
    TOTAL CHLORINE 9
    FC 8.5
    PH 7.1
    ADJUSTED TOTAL ALKALINITY 100
    TOTAL HARDNESS 332
    PHOSPHATES 300

    SO, I put these numbers in the pool calculator, I put in 4 more pounds of dichloro. I came home and used the test strips I have which show FC as > 10, this was 6 hours after I put in the 4 bags of Dichloro

    THE pool is still green, although looks a little cloudy today and maybe a touch less green than when I opened it at. I also bought a leaf shovel and got some leaves out of the deep end even though I cannot see the bottom.

    Now the questions:

    1. Which kit should I get? I read the post comparing various kits, but could not find the links to order them. Where can I get them from?

    2. As I wait for the kit to come, what should I do next?

    i 'I really appreciate all the help I am getting here.

    thanks!




    Quote Originally Posted by Swampwoman View Post
    Greetings and welcome, 40,0000.

    Hopefully you won't have this problem because you don't have the right test kit if you do, but sometimes when both FC and CYA are both at zero, particularly in a swamp, a condition is created that causes ammonia as a byproduct of a type of bacteria that consumes cya.
    The ammonia, in turn, fights the chlorine and causes it to zero out very quickly.

    If you find that adding that shock just keeps zeroing out, please hold up and consider getting a TFTkit or Taylor k2006 specifically if you'd like to use the TFP method of problem solving. Each can read high levels of FC accurately by drop kit AND can read CYA, which is necessary to safely address ammonia through oxidization, not to mention general slam recovery

    Many people turn to TFP "after" their attempts with less accurate/robust test kits and a failure to clear just using "shock" alone as a product instead of a process...and this phenom is one of the reasons.

    TFP is founded on research that predicts the right "kill zone" for Free Chlorine in a ratio to CYA. But working with that ratio requires being able to accurately measure changes at home -- both high levels of FC above 10 and confirmed CYA. So without one of the test kits and very current, reliable readings, most TFPers will be afraid to contribute much assistance to a thread for fear of unintended consequences.

    For example, I would not have been comfortable telling you to put dichloro in the way the pool store did, because I know that if you have ammonia that consumes the FC right away, you'd be left with the condition of possibly "feeding" that bacteria its cya to make more ammonia BUT I also wouldn't be comfortable telling someone to use unstabilized products (eg liquid chlorine without cya) without first putting in 30 ppm of cya to protect over chlorinating and risking liner, equipment, etc.

    When a user has a reliable home test kit that accurately reads FC, if both their cya and FC started at zero and the water is swampy, what we usually advise at the start of a slam is as follows:


    This approach prevents a poster from wasting money, time, and patience throwing in repeated bags of shock per the pool store and zeroing back out and wondering why the heck they can't clear their pool

    So please let us know if you ultimately decide to get a test kit, and if you have any problems going forward. I just wanted to make sure you understood the foundation of TFP and an example of how we are able to give effective advice remotely
    40000 gallons, IG, Vinyl lining, Hayward sand filter 300 lbs,Hayward vari-flo xl valve, Hayward Super pump 1.5 HP, automatic cover

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    I have been using the TF100 from TFTestkits.net for 4 years now and love it. Since you are working on a swamp I recommend the XL version.

    Those numbers don't look bad. Add 2 jugs of 8.25% generic bleach daily, or you can keep using dichlor, just don't let CYA go above 30 ppm. Keep FC around 4 or 5 ppm for now. Scoop out everything you can with a leaf rake and brush daily, or more. Backwash your filter when pressure rises 25% over clean pressure.

    Read this a few times, Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain

    CYA is usually called stabilizer at the big box stores in 4lb jugs.

    More on chemicals here, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Thanks. I thaught I am supposed to maintain shock levels ( FC of 10 for my pool) till my pool has clear water. How many days does it take? Will FLOC speed up the process?
    one of my friends said maybe I need to change the sand in my filter. Is that something I might have to do? How do I know that the sand in my filter needs to be changed or not?
    Thanks
    40000 gallons, IG, Vinyl lining, Hayward sand filter 300 lbs,Hayward vari-flo xl valve, Hayward Super pump 1.5 HP, automatic cover

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    No need to change the sand unless some pool store potion has glued it together. Otherwise all sand is a million years old already. Here is a good process for Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

    Skip the floc and follow the SLAM process, Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain, it works every time.
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  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Quote Originally Posted by 40000gallons View Post
    Thanks. I thaught I am supposed to maintain shock levels ( FC of 10 for my pool) till my pool has clear water. How many days does it take? Will FLOC speed up the process?
    one of my friends said maybe I need to change the sand in my filter. Is that something I might have to do? How do I know that the sand in my filter needs to be changed or not?
    Thanks
    You are correct about maintaining the shock level. Unfortunately, until you have your own kit, you can't do that. pooldv's advice about the 2 jugs of 8.25% generic bleach daily is just to keep the pool from getting worse while you wait for the kit.

    Every pool is different. Some clear in a week some take longer. Most take at least a few weeks.

    There should be no need for extra magic potions. Bleach is all the should be used unless otherwise advised.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    You are on the right track! Finding TFP and asking questions was the best thing you ever did for your pool!

    I agree with Pat on the test kit to get. It should have enough of the regents you will need to clear your pool. His post has links embedded in it that go to where to buy the kit at.

    Here are some things you can do while you wait on your kit:

    -add the bleach like stated above to keep things from getting worse

    -brush your pool and keep working on getting stuff up and out

    -open up your sand filter and do a deep clean Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

    -keep taking and share pics of your pool looking down at the steps. That will show us your progress.

    As soon as you test kit gets there let us know and we will walk you through the tests. There are also videos on the site where you can order it from.

    We got ya! From now on lets just do the above and do not go to the pool store please.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Help me! Swamp...

    Thank you very much for your help till now. I have found the link to order and will get the TF 100 XL kit. I am excited for it to arrive, I hope it comes soon!

    Here is the update from yesterday:

    I shocked the pool again last night with 4 pounds of dichloro before going to sleep. Today morning took the pool sample for testing
    The pool still appears green but appears to be slightly less green. It also appears more cloudy / whitish. I will post the pictures next.

    The test results:

    TDS: 740
    TOTAL CHLORINE 15
    FREE CHLORINE 15
    PH 7.2
    CYA 32
    TOTAL ALKALINITY 102
    TOTAL ADJUSTED ALKALINITY: 92
    TOTAL HARDNESS 360



    To summarize, here is what I have done till now:

    1. Got pool openned last week. I was dark green. Left it to the pool shop which openned the pool to clear it for me. He dumped in 50 gallons of 12.5 liquid chlorine over one week. But there was no change in pool color. FC was zero whenever he checked it. After 10 days and paying him for all those chemicals AND NO CHANGE, decided to take matter in my own hands. Got sold FLOC and copper algaecide on top.

    2. Discovered TFP on the internet 3 days ago (thank God!). Followed SLAM advice. Figured out that the pool guys chlorine was not working because he dumped in whatever he had, whenever he came. So there could be 2-3 days gap between the shocks.

    3. Posted initial numbers here. CYA 0, FC 0. Had lots of dichloro lying around. Have put in a total of 18 pounds of dichloro till now (over the last 2 days == 10 Lbs the first day, 4 lbs yesterday am and 4 lbs last night). Checked pool numbers, which are posted above.


    1. What should I do next considering pool is still green (albeit a little lighter).

    2. What is the best way to backwash? should I do it twice a day irrespective of pressures? or should I backwash only when the pressure goes up by 25 percent?

    3. I have the BIOGUARD BANISH copper based algaecide lying around. Should I put it in or wait a few more days for the filter to keep working at shock levels? Is there a harm to using it apart from the added cost? (There are mixed reviews about copper based algaecides in this forum, mostly negative. I am worried about the staining which people have talked about on Vinyl pools, so I called the shop which recommended it, and he assured me that this brand does not stain as it has chelating agents already in it).

    Thank you! Eagerly awaiting suggestions!

    Here are today mornings pictures:

    IMG_2716.jpg


    IMG_2717.JPGIMG_2718.JPG


    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    You are on the right track! Finding TFP and asking questions was the best thing you ever did for your pool!

    I agree with Pat on the test kit to get. It should have enough of the regents you will need to clear your pool. His post has links embedded in it that go to where to buy the kit at.

    Here are some things you can do while you wait on your kit:

    -add the bleach like stated above to keep things from getting worse

    -brush your pool and keep working on getting stuff up and out

    -open up your sand filter and do a deep clean Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

    -keep taking and share pics of your pool looking down at the steps. That will show us your progress.

    As soon as you test kit gets there let us know and we will walk you through the tests. There are also videos on the site where you can order it from.

    We got ya! From now on lets just do the above and do not go to the pool store please.

    Kim
    40000 gallons, IG, Vinyl lining, Hayward sand filter 300 lbs,Hayward vari-flo xl valve, Hayward Super pump 1.5 HP, automatic cover

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