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Thread: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

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    SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Hello all. New to the forums. I bought a house over the winter that has a 16x32 IG (~20,000g). The pool sat for at least 2 seasons. The pool is a bit of a pond. I have been reading the site here and getting great advice. Last night I picked up a Taylor K-2006 test kit with the FAS-DPD test. My CYA level, according to the test is non existent. Is that normal for a pool that has sat? I know I need stabilizer to bring that level back up. About how much should I need and how much should I raise it to. Keeping in mind that I will be vacuuming to waste a few times during the SLAM and replacing that water (I know its not much). Any help on this is appreciated!

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Hello nooble! A pool that has sat for a long time and allowed the FC and CYA to go to zero can very-well have ammonia. So you need lot of bleach and perform the following:
    1. Begin a SLAM and dose FC up to SLAM level. If your CYA test is showing as zero (perhaps already converted to ammonia), use a SLAM/Shock FC of 10. Do not add additional CYA at this point.
    2. Retest FC at 10-minute intervals.
    a. If FC loss is greater than 50%, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level and continue retesting FC @ 10-minute intervals.
    b. IF FC loss is 50% or less, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level. Go to Step 3.
    3. If CYA is below 30 ppm, add enough CYA to bring level up to 30 ppm.
    4. Continue SLAM as directed in the SLAM article until the SLAM Criteria of Done are met. Test as directed in the SLAM article - no longer need to test FC at 10 minute increments at this point.

    If you have any questions, please let us know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, please add your pool info to your signature by going to the top of the TFP web page (just under the Pool School button) and select "SETTINGS". On the next page look to the left for a menu bar that says, “MY SETTINGS” and go to "EDIT SIGNATURE" to enter your pool and equipment info there. It will help us later. This link may also help you: Pool School - Read This BEFORE You Post.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    How soon after adding bleach should I test for FC? Also the PH is at about 7.0 this am. Do I need to bring that back up?
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    pH is perfect for a SLAM. You need to test the FC every 10 minutes and increase it back up to 10 if it dropped below 5. That's to remove the ammonia.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Once the FC begins to hold after 10 minutes, THEN you add enough stabilizer to get your pool to a CYA of 30. For your pool, that's 80 ounces. Wal-Mart has 64 ounce stabilizer containers if you don't have any. Or check Hoe Depot/Lowes pool sections.
    To increase CYA via granular stabilizer, place the required amount as calculated by the Poolmath calculator into a white sock and suspend it near a return jet or in the skimmer. Best not to allow undissolved granules to rest directly against the pool surface. Squeeze the sock periodically to help it dissipate. Once dissolved, consider your CYA adjusted to that programmed (target) level, although the test readings may take anywhere from 24 hours to a few days to fully register. Confirm CYA in about one week before adding any more stabilizer/conditioner.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, if you're not doing it already ... use the 10ML sample size when testing FC to save on reagents.
    10ml sample, multiply drop count by .5 (standard method)
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Awesome thanks! I need more bleach! I added 7 jugs and I tested about 15 min after. My FC was at 4. (need to go grab more bleach) I tested 10 min later and it held at 4. So I am off to go get more bleach and stabilizer. Walmart does have a good deal and I have been using the 10ml sample size using the formula you suggested. Thanks for all the help.
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Does it really take that much bleach???

    Everyone here has been helpful so far. Need some assurance I am going in the right direction. I bought a Taylor 2006 test kit and 15 bottles of bleach (3.75 quart) 8.25% mix.

    Between last night and this am, all 15 bottles have been dispensed into the pool and my FC level is only 3.

    My pool is a mess. It started black, now it is dark green. So I think I'm headed in the right direction, but I want to be sure that I actually will need another 30 bottles of bleach to get this pool to slam levels...

    A little background. Pool has sat for at least 2 seasons. We bought the house over the winter. It was winterized properly and was covered. We have vacuumed 3 times to waste (I know it needs more). I just want to make sure i am doing all I can to jumpstart this massive cleaning and opening project.


    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Re: Does it really take that much bleach???

    Yes it will take a lot to kill off the bad guys. Try to find the best deal on bleach you can. Most of the time for me that is the great value brand at walmart, but they also recently had a sale on liquid chlorine in the pool section. A true gallon jug of 10% for $2.50. If they have a deal like that, buy all of it We could use a full set of test results - any CYA in the water? Etc
    SLAM * Chlorine/CYA Chart * Pool Math * Pool School
    17.5k gal IG Fiberglass, Triton II TR60 Sand Filter, Jacuzzi Magum Force Pump 1.5 hp, 3/4 hp booster, Polaris 280, TF-100 Test Kit with Speed Stir

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    Re: Does it really take that much bleach???

    If you're clearing a gooey black swamp, very easily.

    If there's still a lot of debris in the pool, the bleach will be wasted trying to oxidize it. That's why we urge people to vacuum blind and dredge with a leaf rake

    to remove as much as possible. Two, there's a chance that the CYA broke down into ammonia. It takes something like 10 times as much FC to neutralize the ammonia. So if you had 6 ppm Ammonia, you'd need 60 FC just to eliminate it before you can even start on the algae. For a pool your size, that would be 15 jugs of 8.25%.

    What is your CC reading? If it's higher than the FC, there's a good chance you have ammonia. Or had. Maybe you're beyond that stage. And was there any CYA in the water when you started? Oft-times when we see a sludge pond and no CYA, we suggest an ammonia test, and if it's positive, to consider water replacement because it's cheaper than all that bleach.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Does it really take that much bleach???

    Quote Originally Posted by Razorhog View Post
    Yes it will take a lot to kill off the bad guys. Try to find the best deal on bleach you can. Most of the time for me that is the great value brand at walmart, but they also recently had a sale on liquid chlorine in the pool section. A true gallon jug of 10% for $2.50. If they have a deal like that, buy all of it We could use a full set of test results - any CYA in the water? Etc
    Right now there is no cya in the water. Another poster suggested that i get the FC stable at slam level before adding cya
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Re: Does it really take that much bleach???

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320 View Post
    If you're clearing a gooey black swamp, very easily.

    If there's still a lot of debris in the pool, the bleach will be wasted trying to oxidize it. That's why we urge people to vacuum blind and dredge with a leaf rake

    to remove as much as possible. Two, there's a chance that the CYA broke down into ammonia. It takes something like 10 times as much FC to neutralize the ammonia. So if you had 6 ppm Ammonia, you'd need 60 FC just to eliminate it before you can even start on the algae. For a pool your size, that would be 15 jugs of 8.25%.

    What is your CC reading? If it's higher than the FC, there's a good chance you have ammonia. Or had. Maybe you're beyond that stage. And was there any CYA in the water when you started? Oft-times when we see a sludge pond and no CYA, we suggest an ammonia test, and if it's positive, to consider water replacement because it's cheaper than all that bleach.
    I have vacuumed a couple times, and have been dragging the leaf net (same as you pictured) I am no longer bringing up much material from the bottom...I get the feeling there is still more down there tho.

    I did not test the cya at first (made the mistake of going to a pool store first) I found this site a couple days after (glad I did).

    Now I just tested the FC and CC. I used the Taylor FAS DPD test.

    I did the 25ml level. Turned clear on the FC at 13 drops (just under 3ppm). Put 5 drops of 003 and got to 30 drops of the 0871, with no color change.

    Rather than wasting more of my reagent I stopped there.

    Does that mean I have an ammonia issue?
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    YES!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ammonia shows up as very high CC on the test. Find an ammonia test kit at a local pet shop.

    Use the 10ml sample to save reagents for the FC/CC test.

    It's a 10 to 1 ratio to oxidize the ammonia - once you know your ammonia level you will have won half the battle.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom View Post
    YES!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ammonia shows up as very high CC on the test. Find an ammonia test kit at a local pet shop.

    Use the 10ml sample to save reagents.

    It's a 10 to 1 ratio to oxidize the ammonia - once you know your ammonia level you will have won have the battle.
    At what level ammonia is better to just replace the water...don't want to have to do that, but it is what it is.
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    An immediate way to test for ammonia is to bring your FC level to 10 and test 10 minutes later and if you have a drop of half or more, then you have ammonia and the cure is to add back up to 10 ever ten minutes until your FC level holds (or only 1 or 2 ppm lost) and you have eliminated the ammonia.
    5900 G Fiberglass IG pool (circa 1990), SWG Hayward Aqua Rite GoldLine (2013), IntelliFlo Variable Speed Pump (2013), Hayward Pro Sand Filter (circa 1990), Well water (no iron or other metals fortunately), test with Taylor K2006C, Charleston, SC

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    How much did it cost in the chemicals? Is liquid chlorine the better way to go over bleach or granules (pool shock)? Can you let me know what brand those boxes were?

    - - - Updated - - -

    btw, my pool looks just like that one... in the before of course!
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    That ammonia is bad We will get you over him BUT I worry you will run out of testing stuff fast. Here is a link to the bigger bottles.
    TFTestkits.net With swamp you will need a lot AND with ammonia you will need even more to over come it.

    It is up to YOU if you drain it BUT do NOT drain the whole thing. Leave about 1 foot in the shallow end IF you do drain it.

    We got ya! We CAN and WILL help you. Just tell us what direction you want to go. We have helped clear pools we KNEW the Swamp Monster lived it! LOL



    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Up here those shock cases are $10 a piece plus tax. 12.5% concentration.

    I generally don't use anything but liquid. 1 jug of acid, about $4. 2 jugs of CYA, $15 each. So $115 plus tax?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Maybe a garden center by you has the 5 gallon carbouys for a decent price? 12.5% for less than $3 a gallon anywhere is a great price. Some stores sell it for $5 a gallon, ridiculous but people pay it.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom View Post
    Up here those shock cases are $10 a piece plus tax. 12.5% concentration.

    I generally don't use anything but liquid. 1 jug of acid, about $4. 2 jugs of CYA, $15 each. So $115 plus tax?
    That is not bad. Where do you buy it from?

    How long did it take for that pool to get to the after pic? Thank you for all the info!
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    5 days. Up here the local chains offering that price are American Sale and Great Escape. I buy 10% now for $8 a case from Big R, down the street from me, instead of a 15 minute drive and the sales tax goes to my village . Big R is like a Farm and Fleet - not sure what they have in PA? They have a whole pool section. It's great.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Okay, I got my ammonia test kit... it went up to 6ppm and the color is slightly darker than the 6ppm mark. I was able to procure 40 gal of liquid chlorine (10%). In what I have read, with my 20k gal pool, each gallon should get me 5ppm of FC.

    I am assuming about a max of 10ppm ammonia.

    With that in mind, I am going to dump 24 gallons of the 10% chlorine to be safe in getting me past the ammonia and into SLAM levels. I will test the FC shortly after chlorine dump and then 10 min later. Am I safe to assume that if I keep more than 50% of my original FC reading that I am past the ammonia issue?

    Mod note: Do NOT dump 24 gallons of chlorine in at one time. It needs to be done over time as the testing shows the need. Kim
    20,000g, IG, Vinyl, Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward Super II pump, Taylor K-2006 kit, Solar & NG heater

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: SLAM - Getting the CYA right

    Hope I didn't miss something from before, but to make sure we're all talking the same thing .... 24 gallons at one time? On the Poolmath calculator, TWO gallons takes FC in a 20K pool from zero to 10. So I would think you only need to add 2 gallons to start the ammonia purging 10-min drill:
    1. Begin a SLAM and dose FC up to SLAM level. If your CYA test is showing as zero (perhaps already converted to ammonia), use a SLAM/Shock FC of 10. Do not add additional CYA at this point.
    2. Retest FC at 10-minute intervals.
    a. If FC loss is greater than 50%, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level and continue retesting FC @ 10-minute intervals.
    b. IF FC loss is 50% or less, add FC to bring back up to SLAM level. Go to Step 3.
    3. If CYA is below 30 ppm, add enough CYA to bring level up to 30 ppm.
    4. Continue SLAM as directed in the SLAM article until the SLAM Criteria of Done are met. Test as directed in the SLAM article - no longer need to test FC at 10 minute increments at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    24 gallons would take you FC to 120 and probably bleach your liner.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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