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Thread: Heat help needed

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    Heat help needed

    I tried this in the 'Everything Else' section and it sunk without trace in 24 hrs. I'm going to try and troubleshoot this with gas off and would appreciate any 101 tips. My gut says that there aren't many techs out there that understand and can trouble shoot heater issues. I'm handy with a DVM and was a field service engineer on IBM mainframes for 20 years so any help would be appreciated. I'm not going to monkey around with the gas lines, that's a pro's job. I must say that if the Raypak is one of the better heaters, the others must be total *****

    Thanks.

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    Folks,
    I’ve got some problems with a Raypak 407A. I had it firing up but it failed to turn the blower motor and failed with FAN after about 5 secs or so. I’ve replaced the fan relay with the same OMRON LY2F, no effect, still FAN error. Then it regressed to SPK only on the display and no fire up at all. Also I can hardly hear the ‘chirping’ sound that accompanies the SPK message. If I put my ear to the gas valve I can just about hear the ‘chirping’, it was always way louder than that. I was able to see 24V at the violet/black wire lug on the relay when it was firing up and before I got the FAN message. I also have 120V on the red and black inputs to the relay. I never did see anything coming across on the black/white wire or red/white wire from the relay to the blower motor. Now of course it won’t even fire and sits in SPK mode with a hardly audible ‘chirping’. I think this will end up with a call to a tech but if there are any basic checks I can carry out, I’d appreciate it.

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    TFP Guide

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    Re: Posting Here

    The way these work is fairly simple. The call for heat first initiates the blower fan. This Will allow the blower pressure switch to close to tell the board that the draft is good. Once that i proved, and all the other safety switches close the gas valve will then open and the igniter will lite the fuel.
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

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    Re: Posting Here

    OK thanks, I have the manual with flow charts and wiring diagrams so I'm going to take a look at what is going on.

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    Re: Posting Here

    OK, this is what I have found so far using the flow chart and the wiring diagrams in the heater manual.
    The Igniter is producing a nice healthy spark. I pulled it and laid it flat on the frame and tested with gas off, all looks good to me.
    I don’t get 24VAC across P4 –PV/MV to P4 – PV (yell/ black to red/black) on the PC Board, either with gas supply on or off. Manual says to replace PC board. What I get is AC volts all over the lot, everything from 20+ volts to voltage off the 200 V scale. It is not my meter, I checked against the 120V inbound and that is steady, plus I have a spare meter and that shows the same results.
    I also get AC volts all over the lot between red/black and violet / black on the P4 connector.
    Ohmmeter test between P4 connector pins and frame is as follows:
    • Gnd to Frame – Dead short
    • Red/Black to frame – open
    • Yell/Black to frame – Dead short, (that sounds like an issue to me)
    • Violet/Black to Frame – Open
    When I turn on the gas and it tries to fire, I can hear a solenoid like sound from the Honeywell gas valve. The igniter ‘chirping’ is less audible but that may be because the solenoid in the gas valve is dampening the sound from the igniter. The igniter is chirping away but not as loud. If I measure between the red/black on P4 and Ground with the gas on, the voltage is all over the lot, totally unstable. Almost like you are trying to measure DC with the meter set to AC or vice versa. I’m definitely on AC, on the 200 V scale.
    I pulled the P4 connector plug in case there was something at the control valve end pulling the voltages down but the volts are still unsteady at the connector pins.
    Ohmeter check on the wires from the gas valve to the P4 on the board are all good.
    Any thoughts or additional checks before I dig deep and spring for a new board?
    Thanks

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    Re: Posting Here

    one thing I should have checked thinking about this is whether I have 24VAC coming into the board from the input transformer. Though the heater was not switched on when we had a lightening strike, there would have been mains ac to the heater input and presumably to that transformer. The heater itself was switched off.

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    Re: Posting Here

    Here’s my tests on the 24V AC from the transformer to the P6 connector on the board. The input phases to the transformer look correct, 120V on each leg.
    With P6 pulled off the board measuring on the actual connector between:
    Yell / Green – 11.9 VAC
    Blue / Green – 2.3 VAC
    Blue / Yellow – 29.3 VAC.
    When I plug P6 back onto the board and test the same combinations, the readings are constantly changing, all over the lot sometimes off the 200VAC scale.
    What has me very perplexed is the initial problem was the heater fired up no problem but failed with FAN because the blower would not spin. Maybe the smart move is to order a transformer and a board in case one is causing the other to fail. Any thought / comments much appreciated.
    Thanks

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    TFP Guide

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    Re: Posting Here

    What voltage are you getting to the gas valve?

    I sent a message to the mods to have this move to the "everything else" forum and retitle it. This is something Paul may have some insite on and I don't think he will see it here
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

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    Re: Posting Here

    Quote Originally Posted by danpik View Post
    What voltage are you getting to the gas valve?

    I sent a message to the mods to have this move to the "everything else" forum and retitle it. This is something Paul may have some insite on and I don't think he will see it here
    Paul...help. . The control valve has the 3 wires coming straight off the P4 connector on the PCB. So that is at the Valve end P/PV - Red/Black; C/MVPV - Yell / Black; M/MV - Violet / Black. I did all my testing at the P4 connector end that plugs onto the board. I did verify that the wires from the valve to the P4 connector tested for 0 ohms. Testing between red/black and yellow/black is supposed to read 24VAC. What I see is a variable voltage sometimes going over the 200 VAC I have the meter set to. It is just bouncing around, very similar to what I saw when looking at the P6 connector that is coming off the transformer. Here's my text on that:

    Here’s my tests on the 24V AC from the transformer to the P6 connector on the board. The input phases to the transformer look correct, 120V on each leg.
    With P6 pulled off the board measuring on the actual connector between:
    Yell / Green – 11.9 VAC
    Blue / Green – 2.3 VAC
    Blue / Yellow – 29.3 VAC.
    When I plug P6 back onto the board and test the same combinations, the readings are constantly changing, all over the lot sometimes off the 200VAC scale.
    What has me very perplexed is the initial problem was the heater fired up no problem but failed with FAN because the blower would not spin. Maybe the smart move is to order a transformer and a board in case one is causing the other to fail. Any thought / comments much appreciated.
    Thanks

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    Re: Heat help needed

    Sounds like a bad control board. You mentioned you can hear the valve open and the clicking sound of the ignitor gets muffled then. That says the pilot did light but that the board is not getting the message that it lit and to open the main portion of the gas valve.

    Do this, turn the unit on and while it is clicking to light, look under at the pilot. I bet you'll see a flame. If this is true that you see the pilot flame but the unit keeps clicking, it's the control board.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: Heat help needed

    OK thanks, let me give that a try. I'll post back with the final resolution.

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    Re: Heat help needed

    Paul,
    Thanks for the info. The pilot does light I can see it through the small sight hole. Any attempts to get a sensible reading between P4 connector- R/B and Y/B or R/B and V/B which are the main feeds to the valve are all over the shop. Bouncing around, sometimes off the 200 VAC scale. I can't believe there is 200 + v on there otherwise the board would have burned up. It's like there is a floating ground on the board or electrical noise. Thanks for your help, I much appreciate it. I'll order new board and the transformer as well in case that blew the board. The boards are so expensive that I don't want to take any chances. Thanks again.
    Danpik - thanks for your help also. I'll post back when I have the new board fitted.

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    Re: Heat help needed

    OK folks, this is the latest. I think I may have shot myself in the foot with a lot of help from OMRON relays. The heater is back to firing up, I replaced the transformer and the control board. So I'm back to square one, fires but blower doesn't turn. This was my start point a couple of weeks back, and after replacing the OMRON blower relay I couldn’t get the heater to fire up. I think I blew the control board by putting in the wrong relay. What I ordered was an OMRON LY2F relay, that’s what came out of the heater right? Well, it transpires that these relays have either a 24VAC coil or a 110 VAC coil. I did notice on the coil that it was printed 110/120 VAC but I thought, the coils small and it’s not all readable, it’s just giving me the line input / output voltages, somewhere on there will be the text ‘24VAC’. The coil voltage is shown on the relay case but it is separate from and underneath the LY2F text. What’s wrong with a completely separate part number, say LY2F24 and an LY2F110. So I will post back when I get the 24VAC OMRON in, I think that will fix the issue, which is probably all it was in the first place. Just be aware of this if your blower relay goes…..it’s not like ordering spark plugs, oil filters or underpants. This is one of those occasions when you try and comfort yourself by figuring out how much you saved over a lifetime by doing stuff yourself, assuming you are still ahead of the game that is.
    I will give a shout out to GSPOOLSCOM who supplied the transformer and control board via Amazon at a very keen price. All good Raypak new and sealed.

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    Re: Heat help needed

    OK folks she's up and running. The blower fan relay was the original issue, a nice healthy click from the new one and she fired up like a champ. Many thanks to danpik and PS0303 for their help in troubleshooting.
    Just be aware of the required coil voltage should you need one of these relays. Of course ordering from a pool store will get you the right relay but you'll pay more than ordering from DigiKey or Grainger. DigiKey has enough info on their site to minimize ordering errors.
    Thanks for the help.

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