Credit for Plaster

[sbollag]

Our shady pool builder is really trying to pull one over on us now, I think.

We are contracted just for plaster/marcite, but we've decided to go with a Wet Edge product (Primera Stone). Thing is, there's only one Wet Edge installer in this area, and it's not something our PB offers. So we're going to have to just get a credit from them and go through the plasterer directly.

The issue is how much credit they're offering for not doing the plaster through them. There are a number of draws, the last few of which are for 15%, which is just over $4,500, and the contract states the last one is due at plaster. So I thought I might get some push back, they'd say we wouldn't get the full credit, but they're only offering like $1,500!

That seems completely ridiculous to me. No one, no where is getting plaster for that little, even a builder. Seems to me it should be like around $4k credit, shouldn't it?

I'm not sure where this is gonna go, but wanted to see what folks here thought, as everyone here has been so helpful with various issues.

(This is in addition to various shenanigans regarding the decking price - decided to go with brick instead of just the standard concrete, so we get a $1200 credit for that, which is fine. First said they'd do the brick for $12/sf, and now it's become $16.88/sf. She claims it's a complicated pattern, which I think is total BS, because a) we showed her from the very beginning and b) I honestly don't think it's that complicated - https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/a4/7f/55a47f6e7ce2b32e4509184b5b7b3923.jpg)

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[Wraenking]

Are all of the different scopes of work involved with your pool itemized with seperate pricing or 1 lump sum price?

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[Helen203]

I had a similar issue, wanted to upgrade to PebbleSheen but PB offered us *nothing* back for the DiamondBrite in our contract. So we went with DiamondBrite! It was maddening, but we didn't have much room for negotiation.

 

[sbollag]

Are all of the different scopes of work involved with your pool itemized with seperate pricing or 1 lump sum price?

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Unfortunately not really, that's what the issue is. There's one lump sum, and then it was broken down into like 10% down, then 30% at excavation, then 15% at equipment delivery (which we fought over - as they wanted check prior to bringing us any equipment), 15% at tiling and coping, 15% at decking and 15% at plaster.

But her argument of course is that it's the overall price divided up into those payments, not that each of those payments is precisely for that work (so her claim is that the final payment wraps in some of the electrical work, for example), which there is some legitimacy to.

But it seems like absolute nonsense to only offer $1500 credit if they're not doing the plaster (and thus of course not responsible for the start up either).

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[Wraenking]

That's tough as it gives them leverage to credit any amount they want. You need to argue your point that if everything was price by each item it would not be that cheap. You most likely won't get a fair credit back but you need to push for something better than that. Best of luck!

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[sbollag]

No kidding. We're kicking ourselves now for not being more specific. Oh, definitely gonna push back on it. Don't expect to have much luck, but we'll see. Thanks for your thoughts.

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[grottoguy]

The question is not what plaster usually goes for, but rather what would plaster cost them to install? If they do it themselves
(I.e., don't subcontract it) their cost for labor is probably de minimis so their savings would likely be the cost of the actual plaster. I would try to find out the average wholesale cost per square foot for your type of plaster. That plus their labor cost is the upper limit of what they would be willing to credit you. If it takes four guys four hours to plaster your pool their labor cost will only be 16 man hours, which may be as low as $160- $200 if they don't offer those guys benefits.

 

[sbollag]

Right, OK, I get that maybe it's not reasonable to expect that they will give me the like $3500-4000 that it would cost me to plaster it, but even your low estimate is $2,500, not including materials, right? And actually, I am certain that they do not do the plaster themselves, she was telling me she needed to get with her plaster guy, so there's that too.

I just feel like $1,500 is ridiculously low, given that that's not only backing out plaster, but also start up and all those chemicals and whatnot.

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[azdesertpool]

$1,500 seems very low. My understanding is a PB generally adds a profit margin to each step of the build, I can't blame them for wanting to retain their expected profit and maybe a little extra, but for customer service purposes they should credit you most of the costs they are actually saving, and I would be shocked if they weren't saving a lot more than $1,500.

I looked at your brick pattern. I suppose if they need to match the exact color-pattern of the bricks in the photo, it might justify the 40% surcharge they added.

 

[sbollag]

Thanks for your thoughts. That's exactly how I feel - I can understand them wanting to retain some of the profit, I don't begrudge them that, but exactly, I am sure they are saving a lot more than that.

Unfortunately, we've already determined that they don't seem to give much of a twig about customer service. Which is fine, as we certainly won't be recommending them to anyone.

Oh no, not at all, we're not asking them to match the color pattern, just the 2x2 layout, which I guess is considered basket weave.

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[Helen203]

The recession knocked out many pool builders, and the ones that are left now are in high demand. Not sure if your/our opinions are all that important! This is a contractual issue to them, and an emotional issue to us.

 

[grottoguy]

I don't really have a feel for how much of a credit would be proper, but you can probably ascertain their approximate cost. Assuming they were doing it themselves (or the plaster company was an affiliate of theirs), you would need to estimate how many bags of plaster (I think they may come in 80 pound bags) would be needed for your size pool (you didn't mention how many square feet your pool was). If you needed 50 bags and each bag was $25 that would be only $1250. Any maybe they need (you would have to figure out) bags of bonding agent (I'm not sure how plaster is applied and if they need anything else). But I can imagaine where their actual cost is not very high.

On the other hand, if they are actually paying an independent third party, that cost would be a bit higher.

I would try to pin them down on their calculation of their cost. Once they tell you what components are being used, it will be much easier to verify their numbers. And if they tell you they simply pay a third party, I would ask for their number so you can ask them these questions.

The PB probably assumes you won't due diligence their calculation. but if you start pressing them for specifrics, they may budge a bit on their credit.

 

[Helen203]

I dunno, GrottoGuy, its not just due diligence but also contractual obligation. The PB isn't obligated to refund part of the contract because you changed your mind.

 

[sbollag]

But if you remove part of the work, doesn't that necessitate some credit? I mean, we would gladly have gone through them originally, but all they offer is plaster and Diamond Brite, neither of which we are interested in (we originally were just going to go with plaster, as we have an almost 30 year old pool in Florida that still has the original plaster, but then we learned how plaster has changed and doesn't have the longevity it used to).

I can't help it that the pool builder doesn't offer Wet Edge, and I don't think I should have to pay twice because they don't.

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[Helen203]

A credit would be nice but not necessary. That said, I wish you the very best in your negotiations!! We weren't, but our PB is an old stubborn cuss, LOL -- did build us a nice pool, tho!

 

[sbollag]

Ha, thanks. That's exactly how ours is.

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[grottoguy]

I dunno, GrottoGuy, its not just due diligence but also contractual obligation. The PB isn't obligated to refund part of the contract because you changed your mind.

Actually, I was trying to make a different point. A PB likely will stand firm on its offer of a credit if you can't contest his facts. If he says his cost is $1500, merely saying that is hard to believe won't sway him. But if you can actually show him his cost is at least $2200, it is just human nature that he may relent (whether or not he is legally obligated to).

You raise an interesting point, however. I haven't given this much thought, but I don't think you are necessarily correct that the OP can't breach the contract and demand the purchase price be reduced by the PB's actual cost savings. Generally, upon breach the party suing must attempt to mitigate his damages. For example, if I agree to rent your house for $25,000 for one year and then I breach the contract, a court generally will require you to attempt to mitigate your loss by renting it out to someone else. If you refuse to place an add or otherwise attempt to rent your house to someone else, a court may award you zero damages since you never attempted to mitigate your losses. On the other hand, if you rent it out for $22,000, a court generally would award you $3,000 plus your increased costs incurred to rent the house after my breach. (This rule can be statutorily altered, but generally applies in contract law.) In this situation, the OP is breaching his contract by refusing to accept the plaster. It is not that big of a stretch to apply the same principal and award the PB only his anticipated profit on the plaster. In that event, the PB would need to prove what his profit would have been.

Again, I haven't thought about this, but that outcome seems at least reasonable.

 

[sbollag]

Just wanted to give a quick update. PB shared with me exact costs of plaster, and it is as she says. Apparently they get a really good deal on the plaster from this guy they've always used.

So it is what it is. Whatever, still feel like I'm getting a good deal on the Primera Stone going directly through the plasterer (although that was a frigging fiasco - offered to do it through PB, so put plasterer and PB in touch, PB said she knows and likes plasterer, but plasterer said they'd prefer to go directly through me, and then tried to change the frigging price, and then said they were booked for the next three months and just couldn't do it at all! And they're the only ones here who do Wet Edge! So I didn't love that, but we worked it out, and now the stone is en route. Woohoo. So hopefully will be getting it in real soon.)

Thanks again for all the replies and thoughts.

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