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Thread: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

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    It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    I got my pool last year and the folks here helped me get things ready for my daughter's birthday party. Thread link here:

    Need help balancing water for daughter's birthday party in 2 days

    We closed our pool last year, had a winter cover, and opened it up this year about a month ago. The water was clear when we opened it. I re-did my sand filter replacing all my fingers and adding new sand. I replaced my permasalt system chamber. We filled it up and started to try and balance the ALK and PH. My copper reading was at zero when the pool was full. Within 3 days it went up to a 5ppm rating based on the copper test strips. We then added the bucket of preparate for the permasalt system. After this the ALK and PH went off and we have been struggling to get it under control since.

    Preparate link: Free Shipping on Perma Salt Preparate | Pool Supplies

    On top of that there is some type of brown stuff at the bottom of my pool. I've talked to the place where I bought the pool and they thought it was most likely iron so we added 4 bottles of iron remover. This has not cleared up the brown substance, which looks like a silt. Our copper level went down to zero and has not come back up (maybe iron remover related?). The permasalt system has been on the max setting (8) for over 10 days and it has not increased. The pool store tells me to add muratic acid to lower the ALK, which in turn hammers the PH down. The ALK gets low enough and we add PH plus as instructed and the PH doesn't move or barely moves up. The ALK also goes up some from this.

    I've asked about the brown substance and if it isn't iron they said it could be brown algae. We have tried to suck up the brown substance with our robot cleaner but it just seems to get moved around. The pool store instructed us to connect a hose to our pole with a brush and suck it into the sand filter, then backwash it. We did this a few days ago. All of the brown was gone and the backwash was pretty dark (about one month of filter time prior to this, first of the year). The brown substance returned within 24 hours, not has heavy as before, but still on the bottom of the liner in different spots around the pool, mostly the outside.

    We were told to re-balance the chemicals then try liquid chlorine to see if that helps clear the brown stuff and also brings the copper level back up. We've been adding muratic acid a gallon at a time (20ft round, 54" deep, ~13500 gal) and PH plus by the pound as much as 5 lbs at a time with not much movement. We have a digital tester that shows chlorine, alk and ph. My last test with that showed the following:

    Chlorine: 0
    ALK: 110
    PH: 6.4

    Our copper test strip shows the copper level at 0 ppm. It never has increased regardless of the setting on the device. I'm not sure if it the water, or a defective chamber, or device. To be honest we are getting so frustrated with that permasalt system that we are talking about replacing it with a Compupool CPX16-AG Salt Chlorine Generator. We have a Heat Siphon Z575HC heat pump on order, which should arrive sometime next week. I'm trying to get my water fixed before it arrives. Last year, the forum seemed pretty clear on not using the digital testers, or test strips, and instead using a proper kit. I ordered a TF-100 today to use for this.

    CPX16-AG link: CompuPool Salt Chlorine Generator | CPX16-AG
    Z575HC link: http://heatsiphon.com/Downloadables/...hon.Z575HC.pdf

    For now, I used the HTH 6 way test kit from Walmart to get these ratings to share:

    Total Chlorine/Total Bromine: 0
    PH: 6.8 or lower (6.8 is lowest on the test vial)
    Total Alk: 150
    Total Hardness: 250
    CYA: less than 30 (probably close to zero, water was barely cloudy)

    For now, I'm looking for advice on what to do next. I'm pretty sure if I go to the pool store they will just tell me to add more acid the more PH plus until my credit card maxes. I'm finding less confidence in their assistance. It also concerns me that they have no explanation for the brown substance or why the copper level won't increase. They did say if it was brown algae I would need algecide but to wait until its fully balanced and we do the bag/bottle weekly treatment before trying to put that in there.

    I tried to take some pictures of the pool and the brown substance with my phone. I'll try to upload those and link them. I'm not sure the brown substance shows up very well.

    Pictures uploaded into an album here showing the pool, equipment, and images including zoomed in of the brown substance. Even though pics show it darker, it looks brown. Pool Help Needed - Album on Imgur

    At this point my wife and I are very frustrated and are looking to stop listening to the pool store and look to here for advice on how to get our water nice and safe our family.

    I have some chemicals on hand yet, and I'm willing to try whatever the group thinks is best. If I swap to the CPX16-AG, I would look for help with getting the water levels correct before install.

    Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    I only got as far as PermaSalt ... I am sure if we knew about that last year, you were advised to NOT use it.

    ... and I confirmed as much looking at the first page of your thread from last year ...

    We had 6 pages of posts last year helping and teaching ... seems that it all was lost.

    What assurances do we have that we can help you this year?

    Does not even look like you have a good test kit, which was the FIRST recommendation from last year and is STILL the first recommendation.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    It doesn't usually work very well if you combine pool store methods with TFP methods.

    The brown looks like algae to me.
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    I ordered a tf-100 kit earlier today. I am interested in your help. My wife and I want to get rid of the permasalt system and learn here.

    We were told the 2nd year would be better with just the biweekly maintenance chemicals. Clearly that was another lie.

    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    The fine folks here will help you along the way! Just be sure to ask before adding something, if it isn't murratic acid, bleach or CYA, lol.
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Where should I start? I'm looking for advice on what to add rather than trying things myself or based on pool store advice. Thanks.
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    If it were me, I'd raise the pH to 7.2, add 1/3-1/2 bottle of bleach each day and wait on the test kit to SLAM.
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
    Test Kits - Pool Math - Chlorine/CYA/Target/Slam Chart

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Of course we'll help you. Sounds like you are committed to cutting the cord with the other treatment methods. For now, I would keep it very simple as follows:
    - Update your signature; remove the permasalt reference and replace with TF-100 ; also list pool as above ground (or just AGP) and volume (gallons)
    - Since we can't confirm your CYA yet, simply add about 1/2 gallon of plain/regular bleach to the water each day until the kit arrives
    - Once your TF-100 arrives, post a full set of your test numbers and we can really get this going.

    The mysterious world of pool chemistry will become much clearer once you receive the TF-100. I would however also add the XL Option (more reagents) and the Speed Stir for easy mixing to your order. We'll be standing-by waiting for your first test results. Have a nice day/weekend!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bruce View Post
    If it were me, I'd raise the pH to 7.2, add 1/3-1/2 bottle of bleach each day and wait on the test kit to SLAM.
    How do you suggest I raise it? I also have gallons of liquid chlorine called Online Pool Shock which has ingredients of sodium hypochlorite 10%, inert ingredients 90%. The bleach we have is great value bleach for HE washers with ingredients sodium hypochlorite 8.25% and inert at 91.75%. Which do you prefer I use?
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    There is a link in my signature "Pool Math". On that page there is a calculator where you enter your pool size, what your current level is and what you would like it to be. It will tell you how much of what to add. There is also a pool size calculator at the bottom. Let us know if you get lost.
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
    Test Kits - Pool Math - Chlorine/CYA/Target/Slam Chart

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    Of course we'll help you. Sounds like you are committed to cutting the cord with the other treatment methods. For now, I would keep it very simple as follows:
    - Update your signature; remove the permasalt reference and replace with TF-100 ; also list pool as above ground (or just AGP) and volume (gallons)
    - Since we can't confirm your CYA yet, simply add about 1/2 gallon of plain/regular bleach to the water each day until the kit arrives
    - Once your TF-100 arrives, post a full set of your test numbers and we can really get this going.

    The mysterious world of pool chemistry will become much clearer once you receive the TF-100. I would however also add the XL Option (more reagents) and the Speed Stir for easy mixing to your order. We'll be standing-by waiting for your first test results. Have a nice day/weekend!
    I can't seem to figure out how to update my signature. I updated the about section but don't see an option to change the signature.

    I'll try and order the addon options you mentioned for the test kit today. It might be quite a few days before the kit arrives as I think the estimate said 5/13 when I bought it.

    I just responded saying I had some normal bleach and the liquid cholorine which looks the same but stronger. Any preference?
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Try this
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
    Test Kits - Pool Math - Chlorine/CYA/Target/Slam Chart

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Done thanks for the help. Which bleach/chlorine do you prefer I add?
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhuehne View Post
    I can't seem to figure out how to update my signature. I updated the about section but don't see an option to change the signature.

    I'll try and order the addon options you mentioned for the test kit today. It might be quite a few days before the kit arrives as I think the estimate said 5/13 when I bought it.

    I just responded saying I had some normal bleach and the liquid cholorine which looks the same but stronger. Any preference?
    No issues, here is your signature Trouble Free Pool

    I like 10% but all of them work the same, the higher %'s you end up using less to raise your FC...
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    You say you have "gallons" of Online Pool Shock - how old is it? The older liquid bleach (including liquid "shock") gets, the less effective it is.
    8,500gal plaster in-ground with attached spa, two floor drains, one skimmer. Chlorine, City Water.
    Pentair WhisperFlo 1hp Pump, MagnaTek Midcentury EPlus motor, Pentair CleanNClear 200SF Cartridge filter, Purex Triton MiniMax 250 Gas Heater, Pentair SunLite, AutoFill.
    Kreepy Krauly Cruiser, TF-100 with SpeedStir. :D

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    1/2 Gallon of the Liquid Chlorine (10%) added poured in front of the return.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by triptyx View Post
    You say you have "gallons" of Online Pool Shock - how old is it? The older liquid bleach (including liquid "shock") gets, the less effective it is.
    This liquid shock I just added is less than 2 weeks old for my purchase from the pool store. How long they I had it, I can't say. I have 2 more gallons left from this case purchased.

    I also have 2.5 gallons of liquid shock from a purchase last year in early August.
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Sometimes there is a Julian date on the boxes, it will look something like 16 117 (2016, 117th day of the year). That's a really good way when you're buying bleach or liquid chlorine to make sure you're not getting last year's product. Also of concern are where the store is storing its boxes - if inside under climate control, you're much better off than outside in the garden center in the weather.

    So that said, looks like the 10% is definitely the way to go for you.
    8,500gal plaster in-ground with attached spa, two floor drains, one skimmer. Chlorine, City Water.
    Pentair WhisperFlo 1hp Pump, MagnaTek Midcentury EPlus motor, Pentair CleanNClear 200SF Cartridge filter, Purex Triton MiniMax 250 Gas Heater, Pentair SunLite, AutoFill.
    Kreepy Krauly Cruiser, TF-100 with SpeedStir. :D

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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Can anyone provide feedback on me removing my permasalt and moving to this specific SWG system:

    CPX16-AG link: CompuPool Salt Chlorine Generator | CPX16-AG

    I'm thinking of ordering this today.

    Thanks!
    Rosemount 24' round AGP, 13,500 Gal, TF-100, Waterway Sand Filter 26"

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    We have not seen very good reviews for that brand of swg.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: It's a new year and I have the same problems. Please help.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhuehne View Post
    Can anyone provide feedback on me removing my permasalt and moving to this specific SWG system:

    CPX16-AG link: CompuPool Salt Chlorine Generator | CPX16-AG

    I'm thinking of ordering this today.

    Thanks!
    Ok, compupool has been having many many issues lately, Curcupool is making way better SWG's...

    The SJ40 would be a much better choice for you, yes it is a little more but you pay for quality... I just do not want you to buy something again like the permasalt system...
    they have a free upgrade to the next level SWG CircuPool® SJ-20 Salt Pool System

    could you upload a picture of how and where it is plumbed into you PVC

    On taking out the permasalt copper system you would just cut the PVC pipe and install the SJ40 in the same place, here is what I made for my SJ install




    the controller is the big blue thing on the right
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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