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Thread: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    I've been a TFP supporter for several years. I've come here in the past to read and learn about a recurring problem I have with metal (copper) stains. I understand the consensus here seems to be that if after stain removal and phosphonic based sequestrant, if the stains return, it means "you weren't using enough sequestrant".

    Unfortunately, I'm adding about a quart of sequestrant a week and much to my dismay, the stains always return in the span of 7-10 days. My pool is only about 23k gallons.

    I've decided to hire someone to completely replumb my equipment to # 1, replace all the cheap PVC valves with Jandy Neverlube valves and # 2, to add valves that will allow me to completely bypass/isolate my pool heater. I suspect that my copper issue must be coming from the heat exchanger. I am VERY diligent about keeping the chemistry as suggested here and use the TF-100 test kit. However, as the years progress, my metal stains only worsen from season to season. I wonder if I'm in a cycle where the metal stains appear, treating the pool for the stain removal lowers the pH which may be further corroding my heat exchanger. Since we only use the heater 2-3 times early in the season, I figured it can only help to drain and fully bypass the heater the rest of the season.

    Unfortunately, I can't seem to add enough sequestrant to keep the stains away. This stain removal cycle every 7-10 days is REALLY expensive.


    Here are some photos that illustrate how bad the staining can get and how quickly the metal removing chemicals get rid of the stain. As you can see, on Saturday evening, the liner stains are visible in the deep end. Sunday morning, it's a mess.. etc.
    2016-05-01 14.15.06.jpg2016-05-01 14.15.50.jpg2016-05-01 14.17.45.jpg2016-05-01 14.19.35.jpg
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    What are your pH and FC numbers? Sequestrant is effected by chlorine and you may need to target a slightly lower number to protect it.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    FC 4, ph 7.2 yesterday when I tested.

    Adding the metal treatment usually consumes most of the chlorine and lowers pH to around 6.8. I usually bring chlorine up slowly with bleach and bring pH up to around 7.0-7.2 using borax.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Well, you seem to be doing it right. Hopefully swampwoman or one of the other metal people will be along shortly.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Yikes Carlos....we had this same convo same time last year. Sorry to hear your still having problems. I'm still battling them too. If I raise my FC higher than 5 I know the stains are coming back. My pool loves it's ph at 7.3 w TA at 75 and will settle there on its on but I try to keep both lower. Using a lot of Jacks Magic has helped a lot this year so far with only one AA treatment. Got a pretty good deal on Jacks at Sunplay. 5 bottles at $18 each w free shipping. My local store wants $25 bottle. (Btw, I did take my corroded steps out) Here's hoping for a metal free summer for both of us!
    Montgomery, AL
    27000 16 x 36 IG, Vinyl, Grecian, Hayward Sand filter, 1 HP Pentair whisperflo motor, Aqua Genie filter not by choice, no extra jets, Dolphin s300i robotic cleaner,Taylor K 2006 test kit, speed-stir which I couldn't live without!

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Hey smforte... yes I'm still battling the never ending metal stain. It seems like every season, the staining is progressively worse. I also removed my corroded pool ladder at the beginning of the 2015 season.

    The only remaining metal source I can think of is the pool heater copper exchanger so that's why I'm thinking about replumbing so I can completely bypass the heater the 10 months of the year I don't use the heater.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Bypassing the heater is a good idea anyway. The heater should only release copper when PH is under 7.0 for sustained periods. Keeping your PH at 7.2 should prevent that. If there is no other source of copper then the copper level should not be increasing. Is the water turning green or is the pool staining. If the water is green then use CuLator to capture the copper and/or perform a partial drain and refill the pool to remove the copper. Always leave a foot of water in the shallow end when draining a vinyl pool. If you remove enough of the copper then the staining will stop and no more sequestrant will be needed.
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    The water stays perfectly clear but the liner and plastic fittings stain.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Well I have good news and bad news. More like good news and frustrating news.

    The good news is that my awesome pool builder came out and replumbed everything and replaced the cheap pvc valves with Jandy Never Lube valves FOR FREE! Keep in mind, the pool was built 5 years ago. I re-hired him to redo the plumbing to allow me to bypass the heater. After doing the work, he said he could not charge me because he felt they should have done it that way to begin with 5 years ago. The guy is obviously a stand-up guy.

    Now for the frustrating news. When he had everything taken apart, we took a look at the ends of heater copper exchanger tubes and it looks perfectly fine. Not even tarnished, just shinny copper.

    It also happens that I ordered Jack's Magic stain ID kit and their sequestrant test kit and they were delivered this afternoon. Much to dismay, the copper test did NOTHING but the iron test immediately removed the stains just like the GLB Stain Magnet product I use.

    My dilemma now is that if the stains are iron and not copper, I have NO IDEA where the iron could be coming from. I've checked the pool light, skimmer screws, no rust anywhere. Last season, I replaced a pool ladder that was showing rust and replaced it with a Saftron rust-proof ladder. I realize that the rust from the previous ladder is likely still in the water but my stain problems are worse than ever. It really seems like the metal concentration in my pool is higher than ever due to the speed with which the metal stains return. I'm only able to keep the stains at bay for about a week.

    Here is a photo of the new plumbing that allows me to completely bypass the heater...

    20160507_121423.jpg
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    I hate to ask, but where do you get your fill water?
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    City water and according their yearly reports, should contain no iron.

    http://www.cwwga.org/documentlibrary...ort%202014.pdf
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Live near an iron mine? Or a metal processing plant? I'm not being facetious, I've seen crazier things
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    No. 1 acre lot in suburbia. Only houses around.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    What's got me puzzled, is that it's getting worse each year. At some point you may have to treat it and drain. Then refill. Just so you don't have to use so much metal free. As far as we know, draining is the only sure way to get rid of metal. There are a number of products that say they work but I haven't read of a successful test.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Yes, I'm thinking about renting a pump to dump out large amounts of water. From what I've read around here, it sounds like it should be safe to drain to about a foot deep in the shallow end (vinyl liner pool).
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    My wife keeps asking me to find out where you live. I don't see it in your info on the left. I notice that in one of the pictures of your equipment pad, that the lower part of the house wall is stained reddish. Could you have iron in the dirt? My house in Alabama had that same issue, it was from the red clay that our subdivision was built on.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Midland, Georgia... just outside Columbus, GA. The soil is most definitely RED CLAY all around us. That's what the stain on the brick is from. The house was built but the builder left red clay all around the house until they did the final landscaping so the rain splashed red clay on the brick and permanently stained it.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    As far as the draining goes. That is what I have read also. "Leave a foot in the shallow end."

    - - - Updated - - -

    What makes red clay, red? I just Googled that and look what it says...

    The State is well known for its abundance of "Georgia Red Clay". People often ask why the soils are red. The red color that is so evident in Georgia soils is due primarily to iron oxides.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    But the pool doesn't come in contact with the red clay. The pool is surrounded by concrete deck and lawn - no water runoff goes in the pool - we have rain gutters directing all rain water away from the pool. I can't imagine that iron is somehow making its way thru the pool walls and vinyl liner.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.

    Dust from the surrounding area? I know I'm drawing at straws but what else could it be?
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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