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Thread: Another after the fact question

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    Another after the fact question

    For those of you that have spas attached to the pool, do you have an isolation joint around the spa too where it comes in contact with the deck? The builder placed the foam around the perimeter of my pool separating the coping from the concrete deck but did not continue the foam barrier around the stack stone of the spa. So the concrete was poured up to the stack stone of the spa, actually same thing as my firepit. I know this is not correct, thanks Bdavis, but I just wanted to get some feedback from others on this situation. Since I am going to need to pull up a lot of my new deck I might as well do it in these areas also if I am going to run into problems.
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Another after the fact question

    There should be an expansion joint between 100% of the pool shell and any decking.
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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Are you going to run into problems? Who knows. As pooldv states above there generally should be an expansion joint between the pool structure and any deck. Overhang cantilever decks excluded. But will it be a problem?

    It depends on the soze of the deck and the placement of any expansion or control joints that they did put in. It is entirely possible (though unlikely) that they designed it in such a way that an expansion joint is not necessary.

    Picture s would help. But its probably impossible to say for sure.
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    Re: Another after the fact question





    Here you go. You can see there are a lot of cracks in the sections around the spa. There is foam around the pool but nothing around the spa.

    Perhaps this contributed to the cracks? I know there should be a isolation joint between the deck and spa wall, the PB says "we never do that". I am just doing some field research. So anybody out there with a concrete deck that also does not have an isolation joint between the deck and the spa?

    Thx
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Since I am posting here are the cracks in the deck 30 days out




    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
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    Another after the fact question

    So you don't even have plaster yet and there are already major cracks in the concrete? I don't know how normal that is but I'd have a big problem with it!


    Started 5/31/16. 38'x23', 618 sqft., <14,000 gallons, 8' spa.Travertine coping. Raised beam w/3 sheers. Large sunshelf w/3 bubblers. SWG IC40, Pentair VSP, 520 cartridge, color LED lights, Easy-touch, screen logic, Maytronics S300i robot, and Wet Edge Prism Matrix finish (Deep Sea Blue with Indigo plaster). Build Thread: Another in Texas - Cypress Texas | MUD District | HOA Approval | Great Escapes Pools

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Quote Originally Posted by twinkiesmommy2009 View Post
    So you don't even have plaster yet and there are already major cracks in the concrete? I don't know how normal that is but I'd have a big problem with it!


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    Lol, welcome to my nightmare, I am not a believer in luck good or bad, but the pool gods have not shined well on this project. We are still trying to come up with a solution to this mess.
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan7 View Post
    Lol, welcome to my nightmare, I am not a believer in luck good or bad, but the pool gods have not shined well on this project. We are still trying to come up with a solution to this mess.
    What did the PB say?
    Started 5/31/16. 38'x23', 618 sqft., <14,000 gallons, 8' spa.Travertine coping. Raised beam w/3 sheers. Large sunshelf w/3 bubblers. SWG IC40, Pentair VSP, 520 cartridge, color LED lights, Easy-touch, screen logic, Maytronics S300i robot, and Wet Edge Prism Matrix finish (Deep Sea Blue with Indigo plaster). Build Thread: Another in Texas - Cypress Texas | MUD District | HOA Approval | Great Escapes Pools

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Quote Originally Posted by twinkiesmommy2009 View Post
    What did the PB say?
    Concrete cracks. Yes it does but not excessively, this was caused by too wet of a mix and bad joint placement. I was really just courious as to whether others with a raised spa have an isolation membrane between the spa wall and concrete deck.

    It seems I ask a lot of mysterious questions I am still trying to get somebody to tell me where the expansion joints should be placed if we have these section removed and re poured. It's either that or repair the cracks and spray deck.

    I was leaning towards the spray deck until I discovered there is no isolation joint around the spa and there should be one, that's making me rethink the spray deck option.

    Anybody?
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
    TF-100, Doheny Discovery robot.

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    Another after the fact question

    Wow those cracks look bad. We only had the foam around our pool and not the spa which is attached. Our PB also used rebar around the whole pool and spa and all other concrete has wire mesh imbedded in it. Ours completed March 3rd in SoCal and I don't have any cracks yet. Poured over the foam where the expansion joints is this stuff I attached in the photo.


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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Jamie has some problems with her concrete and had to do some research. She recently had a baby though and hasn't been around. That's a tough question. I'm hoping someone gives you some more input!


    Started 5/31/16. 38'x23', 618 sqft., <14,000 gallons, 8' spa.Travertine coping. Raised beam w/3 sheers. Large sunshelf w/3 bubblers. SWG IC40, Pentair VSP, 520 cartridge, color LED lights, Easy-touch, screen logic, Maytronics S300i robot, and Wet Edge Prism Matrix finish (Deep Sea Blue with Indigo plaster). Build Thread: Another in Texas - Cypress Texas | MUD District | HOA Approval | Great Escapes Pools

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    As a reference point, ours cracked multiple places on day 1 (or 2 or 3 - can't remember). And a few cracks since. Ours is not nearly as noticeable due to the pattern. I also don't see any expansion joints (complete gaps in concrete filled with a softer material) in the body of your decking area. I only see control joints (which are supposed to guide/control where the inevitable cracks go).

    In my mind, there is no reason to not have an expansion joint around a spa. Concrete cannot tell the difference between the gunite formed into what we call a spa and what we call a pool. The result is having decking up against an immovable object with no room for expansion.

    I will also add the obligatory quote of "there are two kinds of concrete, the kind that has cracked and the kind that is going to crack". Surely workmanship and methods play a big/significant part, but concrete will crack.

    I'm very sorry that you are having to deal with this. I wouldn't be at all happy with this either. Short of a re-pour with better workmanship and methods (mixture, control and expansion joints, etc.), I'm not sure what else is possible.
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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Thank you for the photos and feedback. I am leaning towards having the cracked areas removed and repoured and I will hire a ACI deputy inspector to be on-site. There is a crack is every section around the spa, so I will also have them put the foam isolation joint around the spa too. I was just going to get money from them to go towards the spray deck but I am concerned about no isolation joint between the shell of the spa and the deck. My PB said they never place them around the spa, only the pool. That makes no sense as the shell of the spa is still connected to the pool. In my application there is concrete between the spa and the block wall, there is no isolation joint on the wall side or the spa. As concrete expands with heat this "could" be an issue. I really think many contractor shoot from the hip and take a lot of shortcuts which is why many of us run into problems down the road.

    For the record, our deck was installed on February 25th. The cracks are only the beginning, there are many finishing issues that I think everyone on this forum would have an issue with. My goal is to get the cracked sections replaced, then down the road put a spray deck down to cover the poor finish work. I don't believe the contractor is doing to demo the deck and replace it short of litigation.


    I think many homeowners just don't know enough to ask the right questions. Perhaps the shortcut method will not result in a problem but why not do it right.

    Just because you can change a electrical outlet and not get shocked 90% of the time does not make it the smartest thing to do. I think many in the construction trades take this approach, if they can get away with it 90% of the time why not! right? three-five years down the road they are long gone.

    I know it's been painful for some to read my posts as it seems like I am complaining, but we have had a bad build experience and run into issues that many on this board have not seen. If I can help others and elevate the awareness to others, perhaps future owners will get a higher quality build.
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
    TF-100, Doheny Discovery robot.

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Thanks for the photos! Love the pool! Any chance of a photo of the joints at the auto fill / skimmer section



    Quote Originally Posted by eostrike View Post
    Wow those cracks look bad. We only had the foam around our pool and not the spa which is attached. Our PB also used rebar around the whole pool and spa and all other concrete has wire mesh imbedded in it. Ours completed March 3rd in SoCal and I don't have any cracks yet. Poured over the foam where the expansion joints is this stuff I attached in the photo.


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    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
    TF-100, Doheny Discovery robot.

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    That is a problematic location. You just know something is going to happen there. I can see why you are upset. I'd also recommend some kind of joint against the wall also. You are just creating an area that will be stressed on warm let alone very hot days. The crack off the skimmer is criminal control joint placement.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    Agree, any suggestions for joint placement on the skimmer auto fill section? I the contractor has no clue.

    Open to suggestions for joint placement on the other areas with cracks, I will have to be the to decide where to place them.
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
    TF-100, Doheny Discovery robot.

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    I for one thank you for sharing. We are close to starting our build and these things help us know what to watch for! ❤️ Many thanks!


    Started 5/31/16. 38'x23', 618 sqft., <14,000 gallons, 8' spa.Travertine coping. Raised beam w/3 sheers. Large sunshelf w/3 bubblers. SWG IC40, Pentair VSP, 520 cartridge, color LED lights, Easy-touch, screen logic, Maytronics S300i robot, and Wet Edge Prism Matrix finish (Deep Sea Blue with Indigo plaster). Build Thread: Another in Texas - Cypress Texas | MUD District | HOA Approval | Great Escapes Pools

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    Re: Another after the fact question

    The blue lines are where I figured your existing joints are. The red is where you will get cracks regardless of the type of mix. Concrete always cracks in the thinest, highest stress, weakest and shortest run areas.

    There are very few cracks that I have seen that were completely unpredictable. Protrusions (skimmer, auto filler) and voids (drains, umbrella sleeves) are notorious for causing cracks. They are a weak spot to begin with since there is a void through the entire slab.

    Its hard to say where to put the new joints since it is unclear what sections are getting removed. More importantly, the new joints will really stand out since the existing joints look to be placed at 8' centers. Any deviation from that will certainly catch the eye.

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