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Thread: can't get cc down

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    delfargo's Avatar
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    can't get cc down

    i think i know the answer to this problem, but just needed a little clarification - upon opening my green swamp of a pool, i shocked the daylights out of it and i went from green to milky/cloudy in just a couple of days. however, it's been in the milky/cloudy state now for going on 3 weeks. i've been running the pump 24/7, but when i stick my arm in the water, i lose sight of my fingers before i get elbow deep. i've been keeping it at shock level the best i can this whole time, but i can't get my cc below 2 ! any ideas?
    this mornings numbers -
    cya - 35
    fc - 16.5
    cc -2
    ph -7.2

    the answer i think i know is - this takes time, keep it at shock till you get cc at or below .5, right?
    i'm just getting a little short on patience. i've just never had it take so long to clear. ARRRGGGGGG !!!
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    More POP.

    Have you looked inside your filter to make sure the sand isn't channelled?
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: can't get cc down

    You could try the DE-in-a-sand-filter trick; add a 1/2 lb of DE and it will make a sand filter more effective. You need to replace the DE after each backwash, of course.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    There are several things you should check on at this point. First, you should do an overnight FC loss test to see if there is still anything alive in the water. Measure the FC level after all chemical additions and after sunset, then measure the FC level again as early in the morning as practical. If the levels are the same, or very close, then there isn't anything still alive in the water.

    Second, you should look into how your filter is doing. Have you been cleaning/backwashing it? Does the pressure go up? Is it dirty when you clean it? If everything in the water is dead the filter should improve the waters appearance visibly each day.

    Third, you might want to double check your test technique. Make sure the FAS-DPD chlorine test solution is going completely clear on the first round, any slight pink left over on the first round can read as CC on the second round.

    Fourth, I don't remember, but did you have a very high chlorine demand when you first opened? Extreme chlorine demand on opening is often associated with CC that is very difficult to get rid of.

    Fifth, make sure the pool gets as much sunlight as possible, don't use a solar cover during the day.

    Sixth, if everything else is ruled out you could try a clarifier. Don't do this if there is overnight FC loss or any sign of problems with the filter.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    delfargo's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    More POP.

    Have you looked inside your filter to make sure the sand isn't channelled?
    i replaced the sand this year before i opened, so i don't think that's the problem, but i suppose it wouldn't hurt to check. and i know i could use a little more patience. thanx mom.
    and i think i WILL start doing the d.e. thing, thanx for the reminder paulr !
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    delfargo's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    thanx for all the tips, 'lion. to answer a few of your questions -
    1st -i have been doing the overnight tests and i'm only losing a couple ppm over night. for example, last night fc was 18 / cc at 2...this morning it was 16.5 / cc still at 2. i know i shouldn't be losing ANY, but at least i'm not losing alot.

    2nd- as for the filter... i've been backwashing daily. i usually do so when i put my hand in front of the return, and it feels like it needs it. the pressure gauge on the filter runs normal at 18 and i usually backwash at 20. the odd thing is the water coming out when i backwash doesn't seem to look as dirty as you would think.

    3rd- good advice ! i'll pay very close attention with my next few tests to make double-plus sure i get rid of 100% of the pink before doing the second round of the test. maybe, in my frustration, i'm hurrying my tests.

    4th- yeah, there was NO clorine in the water when i opened. you think maybe THAT could be the problem?

    5th - i never cover the pool.

    6th - clarifier, like "floc"? i was thinking of trying that in the near future.

    thanx again for ALL YOUR HELP !!! all you cats here at TFP rock !!!
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    delfargo's Avatar
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    cya / shock levels ?

    been having trouble getting my cya up - it's testing at 35, so according to the cya/clorine chart you guys got here, my target shock should be around 14. i've also been having trouble maintaining shock overnight and my cc is bouncing between .5 and 1, sometimes bouncing up to 2, then back down to 1, etc.. so i've been shocking the living daylights out of it for 3 weeks now. question - should i shock at HIGHER than the 14, or is that a waste of bleach, meaning a shock of 20 won't do anything more for me than a shock of 14? thanx agian for your help.
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    Re: can't get cc down

    Did you measure the overnight FC loss? That test is important for distinguishing if you have live algae or simply have a filter that isn't filtering anything out.

    How are you testing your CYA level? Test strips, pool store, black dot disappears, etc? If your CYA level is different than you think it is, that could account for the problem.

    How frequently are you adding chlorine? Once a day, twice a day, several times a day?
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: can't get cc down

    Quote Originally Posted by delfargo

    2nd- as for the filter... i've been backwashing daily. i usually do so when i put my hand in front of the return, and it feels like it needs it. the pressure gauge on the filter runs normal at 18 and i usually backwash at 20. the odd thing is the water coming out when i backwash doesn't seem to look as dirty as you would think.
    Is the water still cloudy? I agree with Jason's advice 100%, and just consider additionally that "dirty" sand tends to filter better....and perhaps you are backwashing too much? Usually it's recommended a 6-8 psi increase you should backwash, not after 2, which would be why you aren't seeing dirty water in the backwash. Just a thought....
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
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    Re: can't get cc down

    so maybe i'm backwashing too much, eh? i've been relying on the feeling of the force of the water coming out of the return. when it's on 18, it's like a fire hose on "full-blast", and at 20 it feels like the water is barely coming out, like the kitchen fawcet turned 1/2 way on. i should wait till it gets up to around 25 or so huh? o.k., i'll give that a try, mom.
    as for the cya, lion, i have the tf-100 test kit, so i'm doing the ol' "black dot" test. i'm adding bleach 2 or 3 times a day, once in the morning before i go to work to get it back up to shock, then when i get home from work i test and add enough to get it back to shock if i've dropped (i've found that a big jug of the wal-mart bleach adds about 4 ppm) then i'll test again before i call it a night and add if i need to and i write all my results down. last night i lost 4ppm. it's been going on 3 or 4 weeks since i started the clean up process, and,like i said, i'm stuck at this "milky/cloudy" stage. my cc was ALWAYS testing at 2, but over the weekend it was testing between 1 and .5, which is good, and i could stick my arm in a little deeper before my fingers disappeared, so there is a little progress being made, i'm just surprised it's taking so long.
    so...what do y'all think about the shock level question i had? should i keep "over-shocking" or just shock at 14?
    thanx again for all your help. you guys and gals are the best!
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    Re: can't get cc down

    Quote Originally Posted by delfargo
    so maybe i'm backwashing too much, eh? i've been relying on the feeling of the force of the water coming out of the return. when it's on 18, it's like a fire hose on "bull-blast", and at 20 it feels like the water is barely coming out, like the kitchen fawcet turned 1/2 way on. i should wait till it gets up to around 25 or so huh? o.k., i'll give that a try, mom.
    as for the cya, lion, i have the tf-100 test kit, so i'm doing the ol' "black dot" test. i'm adding bleach 2 or 3 times a day, once in the morning before i go to work to get it back up to shock, then when i get home from work i test and add enough to get it back to shock if i've dropped (i've found that a big jug of the wal-mart bleach adds about 4 ppm) then i'll test again before i call it a night and add if i need to and i write all my results down. last night i lost 4ppm. it's been going on 3 or 4 weeks since i started the clean up process, and,like i said, i'm stuck at this "milky/cloudy" stage. my cc was ALWAYS testing at 2, but over the weekend it was testing between 1 and .5, which is good, and i could stick my arm in a little deeper before my fingers disappeared, so there is a little progress being made, i'm just surprised it's taking so long.
    so...what do y'all think about the shock level question i had? should i keep "over-shocking" or just shock at 14?
    thanx again for all your help. you guys and gals are the best!
    Try 22-23 before you backwash next time, see if you notice a difference. I don't think you should "overshock", if your CYA is correct 14 should do it. Are you confident of your CYA result? Have you seen this link to the CYA test?
    http://www.taylortechnologies.com/Ch...P?ContentID=44
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: can't get cc down

    Quote Originally Posted by delfargo
    so maybe i'm backwashing too much, eh? i've been relying on the feeling of the force of the water coming out of the return. when it's on 18, it's like a fire hose on "bull-blast", and at 20 it feels like the water is barely coming out, like the kitchen fawcet turned 1/2 way on. i should wait till it gets up to around 25 or so huh? o.k., i'll give that a try, mom.

    Sounds like your physical testing of the force of water is a much better indicator on the filtering than your actual psi reading. Do you think the gage needs replaced?
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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    Re: can't get cc down

    i've done the cya test several times with the same results - always right around 35.

    the gage on the filter is only 4 or 5 years old, but if it ain't too expensive, maybe trying a new one wouldn't be a bad idea.

    so... if my cya is correct and i should be shocking at 14, am i understanding then that over-shocking isn't doing anything more for me and is just wasteing bleach???

    thanx again.
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    Re: can't get cc down

    It is, unfortunately, complicated. There isn't a clear answer to your question because we can't figure out what is going on in your pool. Everything you describe doing should have worked. There must be something else going on that we haven't thought of yet. Depending on exactly what the problem really is, it is possible that additional chlorine can help, but it doesn't seem especially likely.

    Here is an example of something we haven't looked into yet that could cause your problem. If you have say an inch of muck in the bottom of the pool, it would never be possible to kill all the algae and clear up the water until after you vacuum up the great majority of the muck. That situation doesn't seem likely, you haven't said anything I can remember that would indicate that. But it would explain what is happening. Something like that, some additional factor, needs to be at work.

    If you can think of anything else that you have noticed that might provide a clue it might help.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: can't get cc down

    How many gallons is your pool? 21K, 24K?

    It would seem the filter could be a little small and would need frequent backwashing and take longer to clear your pool?

    I would shock on the high side of the recommended, jmho.

    The gage..... I think I read that JohnT(a moderator here ) said that we might be able to find one for around $4 at a farm store and around $10 at the pool store.

    My next trip for a gage will be the farm store! JohnT, please correct me if I am mistaken

    BTW, I was backwashing my 300# sand filter every four to six hours a few weeks ago because of pollen and anything else that blew in there.

    Just trying to give some more ideas and help you along the way to your clear, sparkley pool!
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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    delfargo's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    o.k. guys, thanx again for all your help. as far as muck at the bottom, i don't really know, as i still can't see the bottom. i brushed the entire pool a week or so ago thinking the exact same thing "there must be a bunch of **** at the bottom" but surprisingly, the brushing didn't seem to stir much up. i do think you are on to something, lion, i'm thinking i may have to just vacume to waste "blind". and see what comes out. a little progress is being made, however. a few days ago i started measuring how far down into the water i could see by lowering my long handled pool brush into the water and making a mark on it when the brush disappeared. it seems to be clearing a couple inches a day, but boy do i still have a long way to go. i may also take the filter head off and check for "channeling".
    here is yesterday & this mornings numbers -
    monday night @ 5:30 :
    fc - 13
    cc - .5
    ph - 7.2
    ta - 180 (i know thats real high, but it's always been high due to my well water - i have never been able to fix that)
    ch - 70
    cya - 35
    after this check, i added a jug of the walmart bleach, checked again at 7:00pm
    fc- 18
    cc - 1

    this morning @ 7:15am :
    fc - 14.5
    cc- 1
    added a half jug of bleach and went to work.

    thank you all so much for trying to help me figure this thing out.

    oh, and i added the gallons of water for my pool to my signature.
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

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    delfargo's Avatar
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    Re: can't get cc down

    hello.... anyone home???
    30' round above ground - 21000 gal. (shade ONLY in the evening),
    pentair dynamo 1.5 hp pump,
    pentair sand dollar 150 lb.sand filter,
    bbb method.

  18. Back To Top    #18
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    Re: can't get cc down

    You are still losing chlorine overnight, so there is still something growing in the water.

    You should be brushing the entire pool every day while you are at shock level.

    With CYA at 35, you can take FC up to 20. It might help, even though you shouldn't need to do that.

    Take a look at the last post in this topic for suggestions on what to do once you open up the filter.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: can't get cc down

    Well, you are still losing FC overnight so unfortunately keep shocking, it's not just the filter.

    Did you check the sand or vacume to waste like you mentioned above? I was waiting to hear back on if either - but the overnight FC loss still indicates organics consuming the chlorine. If there is still muck on the bottom, that could be the culprit.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: can't get cc down

    I think you and Jason are probably on to a significant factor. Solid junk in the bottom of the pool would account for your whole scenario.

    Vacuuming blindly, and slowly, to waste may be very helpful. You will lose a lot of water but it might be worth it,

    I notice your filter is quite small for your pool. That has a contributaory effect in that you aren't able to get much junk out without clogging up your filter.

    If you can't stand the water loss, you can also vacuum blindly in the "filter" position but my thinking is you might need to backwash every five minutes with that small filter and negate any water savings.

    Running your chlorine higher may help. Perhaps if you find no real solid matter on the floor putting your FC up to around 20ppm or so will accelerate the clearing process.
    Dave S.
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