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Thread: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

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    pool_clueless's Avatar
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    2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    I am out of ideas now.

    I did my second ascorbic acid treatment according to the description here on the forum, on last tuesday 12 April. I also used a culator 1.0 pouch in the pump strainer and one in the skimmer basket. I took several days to bring the chlorine up very slowly. I was afraid I brought it up too fast last time (about 4 weeks ago) and maybe that is what brought the stain back. I have some green looking algae growing in the corners and seems of my liner. I can tell that the liner is changing color again looking like the freaking stain is coming back. I am completely frustrated. Here are my readings as best i can tell with leslie's pool strip:
    FC 2
    ALK about 100
    pH 6.8-7.0
    CyA 40

    I also confirmed FC and pH with an aqua chem kit and got the same results.
    My questions:

    1. Am I wasting my money on the culator pouches?

    2. It has only been a week since i did the AA. Should I go ahead and shock anyway to kill the algae? Is there another non-metallic way to kill algae?

    3. I used Algaecide last winter without knowing it has copper sulfates. Am I correct to assume that is the source of the metal stain? I have not had my fill water tested, but every time the pool store tests my pool water they say there is NO COPPER in my water. (not that i trust them)

    4. I also have this mucus looking stuff on top of my pool water. kind of reminds me of frog eggs. It is a clear film with a small orange or brownish dot in the center of it. Several individual spots of this floating in the pool. I will try to post a pic of it if I can get it to take. Anyone have any idea what it might be? I have lots of trees around, but have not seen this in the last 10 months that I have owned this house.

    Please help. I am at a loss and getting frustrated. I am not rich, so "the pool guy" is not an option. I would rather learn to take care of it properly myself anyway.
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    If your tap or well water does not have copper or iron in it your best bet may be to just partially drain and refill to dilute and replace the water with metals in it. Culators are not the solution to your problem. After performing an AA treatment you have to use a sequestrant and bring the FC up slowly to prevent the copper from dropping out of solution and staining the pool again. If you can refill with metal free water then you won't have to worry about copper stains.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    How often do I have to use the sequestrant? According the culator website, the culators are supposed to absorb the metals that are in your water. Is that true or is it wishful thinking?
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    I'm willing to come over there with my TF-100 and see if I can help you figure this out. Just holler.

    Yip
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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Culator is very hit and miss, and is not a replacement for sequestrant. Here is some more information about culator.

    CuLator Metal Remover

    Testing out the Culator...

    CuLator Metal Removal

    It may have some effect, but if you have to continue using a sequestrant anyway why not just stick with the sequestrant? How often you need sequestrant will depend on the pool size and the recommended FC for your pool. Jack's Magic is one sequestrant a lot of our members use.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    I have been researching Ferri Tabs. Anyone have a success story? I saw one thread on here about using a slimebag in conjunction with ferritabs. Didn't seem to convince me. I guess I could get a jar and try them since they are pretty in-expensive.

    Also, The vitamin C test always lifts the stain. Ascorbic acid always gets it off of the liner. Does this mean it is iron for sure? How do I know it is not some other kind of metal? Is there an "over the counter" test that will tell me what type of metal it is?
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Quote Originally Posted by pool_clueless View Post
    I have been researching Ferri Tabs. Anyone have a success story? I saw one thread on here about using a slimebag in conjunction with ferritabs. Didn't seem to convince me. I guess I could get a jar and try them since they are pretty in-expensive.

    Also, The vitamin C test always lifts the stain. Ascorbic acid always gets it off of the liner. Does this mean it is iron for sure? How do I know it is not some other kind of metal? Is there an "over the counter" test that will tell me what type of metal it is?
    Often this is one of the times they suggest getting the pool store to test for metals.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Yes, the pool store can test for iron or copper. Here is a Jacks Magic Stain Identification Kit JMSTAINID at Sunplay
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    Yes, the pool store can test for iron or copper. Here is a Jacks Magic Stain Identification Kit JMSTAINID at Sunplay
    Every time I have leslie's in town test my water, I have received their print out report that says no copper. I assumed they were testing for iron, but they never put it on the print out and never mentioned it to me. Flawed assumption on my part I guess. So the stain is coming back in the shallow in mostly. Not as green as it was last time it came back.

    Here is a real puzzler: I cut open the culator pouches and there was absolutely no discoloration. There were three clear pearl looking balls, and some white powder in the pouch. Since there was no discoloration, does that mean it is not a metal stain??? I tried using a chlorine puck last night to scrub the stain loose from the liner, but it did not come off at all. But drop a vitamin C tablet in and it clears right up.

    A theory: I have a 10+ year old dolphin cleaner. I often leave it in the pool. It has yellow rubber gripper wheels and track. I noticed that the stain seemed to be most prevalent in the shallow end where my dolphin was sitting for the last two days. The stain has a light brown / yellowish color. Could the rubber on my dolphin be deteriorating and staining my liner? However, the last time the stain came back, there was a shadow of "less stain" underneath the dolphin. Almost like the dolphin was creating a force field that repelled the stain.

    By the way, since doing my last AA treatment( 12 April) I brought my chlorine up really slow. So slow in fact that I got some algae growing. It is now at 5.5 according to the drop test in the TF100 kit(finally bought a TF100). If this is a metal stain, is my chlorine high enough to kill the sequestrant and bring the metal out of solution? From what I have read here, seems like it usually comes out of solution when you shock your pool, or a longer time after AA treatment than 8 days, right? It has only been a little over a week and already the stain is almost as bad in the shallow end as it used to be. All my test levels are in good range. My PH is a little low at 7.2.

    Anybody have any other ideas?
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Ok, just took two samples to Leslie's. One from pool, and one from supply source. Both tested negative for copper and negative for iron. So, I thought, well, if i just dumped in sequestrant 8 days ago, maybe it won't show up, right? But then how could the stain come back if the metal is sequestered? Assuming it is a metal stain? Are there other things that ascorbic acid will get rid of that chlorine tabs won't? By the way, don't know if I mentioned this or not, but the liner is about 7-8 years old and has several patches. None of the patches are getting stained. Just the liner. What gives????????
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    It is possible to have metal stains ands test 0. Maybe give one of these a try to help figure it out. Jacks Magic Stain Identification Kit JMSTAINID at Sunplay
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Took my water samples to another store that is not a big box store. They had a biogaurd test setup. They too said no copper, no iron. Night before last I had one of my sons jump in and scrub the liner with a chlorine tablet. Didn't do anything at first. Didn't notice anything yesterday. But today, there is a definite clean scratch where he scrubbed. Will chlorine clean a metal stain? Im getting ready to order the magic jack stain identifier kit, but don't have much hope for it at this point.
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    So since a picture is worth a 1000 words:20160423_104329.jpg
    If you look to the right of the patch, you will see a lighter streak on the liner. That is where my son scrubbed with a chlorine tablet. You can see the patch that is not stained, and the surrounding liner that is. The patch is one year old. After the AA treatments I have done, you can't tell the difference between the patch and the surrounding liner. Since we are planning on replacing the liner in a year or less, I am just about ready to give up on the stain. The pool as a whole doesn't look as bad as some I have seen. Just irritates me that it is stained and I can't get it to not be stained. If ya'll were me, would you spend any more effort or money on the stain? I am about $100 in right now and no results.
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    What we usually say is; Do the vitamin C test first, then do the puck. The reason is, the puck is mildly acidic and will lighten a metal stain. AA is better for metal and pucks are better for organics.

    So since the AA makes it go away, it's metal. If you want to try the puck, just for the sake of argument, just place it and let it sit for a bit. No scraping required.

    The crazy thing is, you've had results, and good ones, but for some reason it's not staying.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    My wife and I have decided to shock it with Ascorbic Acid again to get the stain back off. Then drain and refill the pool. Any gotcha's I should watch out for with draining and refilling? Do I need to protect against liner dry-out making it brittle or something?
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    Don't drain it completely or you risk the liner shifting or shrinking. Always leave a couple of feet in the bottom.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    I've re-thunk this a bit. Our temp is supposed to get up in the mid to high 90s tomorrow. I would NOT advise you to drain a vinyl pool down in that heat for fear of it drying out and shrinking.

    Could you consider doing multiple smaller water exchanges? It uses more water in the end but it much safer for the pool.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    +1 on not draining the whole pool. Need to leave at least a foot of water in the pool. Let's get some more feedback from people more familiar with vinyl pools.
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    So I drained the pool down to about 18 inches in the deep end. The liner seemed to relax and form some loose ness. I patched some holes and tears, then filled it back up yesterday. After topping it off, I lost an inch of water overnight. Cant seem to find any new tears, rips, or holes. My theory is that when i let the water out, there may have been some air that got behind the liner or water under the liner, and then when i filled it back up it took a while for that to work out and "settle". I will top it back off today and see if it looses any overnight.
    Has anyone else seen any "settling" after draining and refilling?
    20,000 gal L shaped, 28' x 28' (legs of L are 14' wide), with Jacuzzi spillover to pool, pentair de filter 48sqft, 1.5hp booster on Jacuzzi, 1.5hp hayward variable speed on pool, Raypak 199kBtuh heater

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: 2 rounds of AA for metal stain and now Algae --and stain is coming back

    That is a plausible theory. Let's go with that for now.
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