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Thread: Circulatory overhaul

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    Circulatory overhaul

    This seems like as good a place as any to put this post. So let's dive in:

    What I've got: I have a 22,000gal (roughly) inground swamp which came as part of a foreclosure home I bought in Oct. The swamp came with no equipment, just an empty pad, which is good news to me, now I can install whatever I want! There are 2 skimmer pockets. The pad has 3 pipes present, 1.5 inch each. I am guessing that's 1 return, 1 from a bottom drain, and 1 to the skimmers, which must be piped together someplace underground. Just guessing at the bottom drain because, well, I can't see the bottom. The electrical panel is still there. Contains an old mechanical timer, which is probably not worth anything. The box has 230vac, though the breaker configuration implies it was only ever used for a 115vac pump in the past.
    The pool was probably built in 2002-2003. It is vinyl lined, but I don't know what lies under the vinyl.

    What I think I want: Salt water (Pentair Intellichlor), variable speed pump (Pentair Superflo VS), cartridge filter (?), provisions for solar heating (later), sweet robot to clean for me.
    I plan to install everything myself, unless someone has an amazing compelling reason otherwise.



    Does this sound like the right kind of setup? What would you change? Any installation pointers?
    I've been reading all that I can on this site, but as the ground is finally free from the white stuff, I need to get equipment in place soon.

    Thanks in advance for your responses!
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    cowboycasey's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Welcome, You have found the perfect place for help

    it may only have 2 skimmers piped back, or a main connected to a skimmer and 2 skimmers back and 1 return.. A shopvac used to blow through the pipes should tell you what is what..

    I love salt water generators and cartridge filters.. You may want to look at the price difference between a VS pump and a 2 speed, they will both save you on electricity but the VS pump is more upfront and really should be installed with a surge protector, lightning and voltage spikes are there number 1 demise..

    I did my own setup almost exactly like your wanting to do... check out my Pool: install below, it has how I did my equipment pad.

    If the vinyl liner is holding water you are doing good Read through pool school and get yourself a great test kit like the TF100 and have fun..
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Welcome to TFP!

    Sounds like a great plan to me! Do you have a source? Here is one. Pentair SuperFlo VS Pump 342001 | Pentair 342001 Be sure to get unions for installing the pump so you can remove it later, if needed. They don't come with the pump. You can use the old timer for your SWG. That is how mine is connected. Pump to the breaker and SWG on a timer.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    Casey is right, there are multiple ways that your plumbing could actually be done that will require some investigation.

    One word of caution, the Pentair Intellichlor is limited to increments of 20% when it is not hooked up to an automation system. That makes it a little more tricky to dial in the right output.

    For a cartridge filter, I would suggest no smaller than 325 sqft.

    You may want to verify warranties on your equipment if you install yourself.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    True, the Pentair SWG is only adjustable in 20% increments without using Pentair automation. But, having it wired to a timer makes it a lot easier to dial in the right amount of chlorine. Set it at 40%, 60% or whatever and then increase the run time to tweak it.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Thanks guys (and girls?)!
    I'll have to drain a bit of water so I can see what's going on in the skimmer pockets (they're also filthy). Right now, they each have a section of pvc attached with a rubber plug, which I'm guessing is winterization? But I can't tell if there is a second hole in either of them.
    Clever use of the timer for salt generation, I might have to copy that one! Tell me more about the Pentair automation - is it generally worth it, or just blinky lights? (Full disclaimer - I am a controls engineer, I tend to dork out on automation)
    Great price on that pump too. I am aware of the warranty limitation, but at the prices I have seen so far from the local store, I could nearly replace the pump anyway.

    On the cartridge filter - is there such thing as too big? Generally, bigger gets you longer filter life, but is there any kind of minimum effective flow?

    For the pump - another piece of data I forgot to mention, the pumphouse is about 50' from the pool, kinda far. With this distance, and assuming I later mount some solar panels on the roof (about 10' elevation) is that still enough HP?
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Yes, the rubber plugs should be for winterizing. 50' of horizontal water flow in a straight line has little impact to head pressure. It is vertical rise and 90 elbows that increase head pressure. Answer to your question is that it will be fine to run 50' even with a 10' rise to solar panels.

    Lower flow into a filter yields better filtration in all cases. I always filter and make chlorine at 1100 rpm. The only time I increase water flow is when solar heat is needed or I run the cleaner. No such thing as a too big filter, unless it doesn't fit in your yard/equipment pad.

    I am not a big fan of pool automation, but many people love it. I like it simple. EXCEPT for solar. For solar to work well a solar controller is required. It has a water temp sensor and a solar temp sensor and when heat is available it opens the valve, when it is not it closes the valve. We didn't have a solar controller the first year with solar and some days we made the pool cooler due to rain, wind, clouds. Pentair has a Solartouch and a Suntouch for controlling solar, opening the valve and ramping the pump speed. The Suntouch also adds the ability to control the Intellichlor in 1% increments.

    Here's where you can get into the pool automation rat hole. The Easytouch also controls solar and the Intellichlor, it can also power the Intellichlor and you can get an Easytouch combo with a salt cell. The Easytouch can control lots of other stuff, lights, valves, stuff you didn't even know you needed. That will make you want to get the Intelliflo instead of the Superflo because the Intelliflo has more capabilities with the Easytouch. And suddenly you have a few thousand less bucks and a lot of reading to do to program your pool automation! LOL!

    Here is the Intelliflo, I think it is worth the extra couple hundred bucks to make sure you have more pump than you will ever need. Max speed is 3400 rpm, mine never runs over 2500 and rarely runs over 1950 rpm. It uses 150 watts at 1100 rpm and 550 watts at 1950 rpm. Pentair IntelliFlo Variable Speed Pump 011018 | Pentair 011018
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    HI! This is an easy one for me. What he ^^^^^^^^^^^^ said!

    I just wanted to jump in and say welcome. Please take some pics of the pool, area, and equipment.

    You will also need a good test kit so we can help you clear up the water. Look in my siggy for the one we use and love. You will need the TF-100 XL to clear it.

    When you are running around town check to see if there is a pool Store that is easy for you to get to that sells Liquid Chlorine (this is the ONLY thing you will use them for). I have an Ace Hardward up the road that sells Chlorine that is 11%. Some people get the house brand of bleach (8.25%) from Target or Walmart. You are going to need a LOT when you start to clear your pool. Once it gets clear you will not need so much especially if you get a SWG.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Here's a couple pics of the equipment pad I will be working with:





    - - - Updated - - -

    Teaser of the current state of affairs:



    - - - Updated - - -

    My collection of pet tadpoles:

    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Nice! That is going to be great! Did a bear run through that fence?!?
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Top of that felled tree in the background snapped off in a storm and demolished it. Add it to the list
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Nice that it was polite and only hit one section and no posts!
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, SWCG, automation) View Our Build
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    Spring 2013 Build | Dolphin Active 20 robot cleaner | Support TFP!

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    LOL! True, it could have been worse. Sometimes I hate "the list", especially if it gets to page 2!
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Hi Tadpoles! Hope you turn fast!

    That is a pretty fence. Will it be easy to replace that part?

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Yes, replacing the fence section looks trivial. Having trouble find a match in white though, so some painting might be in order.



    Having second thoughts about the cartridge filter now... I always thought the sand-filtered pools I have been around didn't seem as sparkly. Poking around here is leading me to believe chemistry is a bigger contributor. It also seems to be an epic debate.

    So let's say I go with the Intelliflo pump because I like the solar controller tie-in. Is a Pentair Triton II TR60 the right size sand filter? TR100 looks nice, but costs a lot more. I would like to stick with something side-entry.
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul




    The next problem.
    So - are these loose spots (wrinkles?) bad enough to be concerned? Or they go away when I bring the water level back up?
    I don't know how old the liner is, but if things are leaning toward replacing it, I would rather do that now and not waste the chemicals trying to get the water under control.
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    from the looks of the liner I would say it lost most of the water at some time and now has been refilled..

    The answer is maybe, the only way you will find out is bring the water up halfway in the skimmer and see what it does.. the bad thing is you will not know how far the wrinkles go down, do they stop just under the water you can not see or is it bad..

    You will not know until the SLAM is almost done and you can see the bottom.
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    How does the liner feel? Does it have some give when you push on it? Does it feel brittle, dry, etc? If it still has some give it should be fine.

    IF your wallet can take the hit you can always start all over with a new liner. It is up to you which way you go.

    Kim (I would really think about a new liner just to give myself the best start)
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Interestingly, today the wrinkles are almost gone. Based on some holes full of water not far from the pool, I'd guess the water table really is that high, and a couple days without rain let it sink some.
    The liner feels somewhat flexible. I don't think I could poke a finger through it, but I wouldn't want to fold it tightly either. Proceed with the install.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So...Sand filter sizes/suggestions? (details a couple posts back)
    22,000 gal L-Shaped Inground, vinyl lined, with diving board.
    IntelliFlo VS Pump, Triton TR100 Sand Filter, Intellichlor 40 SWG
    TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Circulatory overhaul

    Sand filters are rated in GPM. Choose a filter and pump that match flow rates with the filter being spoewhat higher than the pumps capacity.

    So, roughly, for a 22k pool a full rated 1 hp pump would be fine and a pump in that vicinity will typically produce around 70 GPM. So your filter should be rated at 70 GPM+......up around 90 or so.

    That's a generalization but it will work every time.

    EDIT: I just now read that you want a VS pump.....1.5 HP is gracious plenty.....match the filter to it's output.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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