Creekside Pool in San Antonio, Texas

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That pool is really cool! Your approach to it is good.

I wasn't sure if you had skimmers at all, the ones you have are fine. They do work better with weir doors installed. Those are usually fairly easy to source, here are a whole bunch, Pool Skimmer Weirs. Skimmer Weir Doors. Skimmer Weir.

There are people on TFP who have, and like, Quad DE filters. DE filters have the ability to filter out very fine particulates. Which also gives them the ability to clog faster and require cleaning more often. Hopefully some quad DE people will stop by.

Here are some Stenner resources
My Stenner Install - July 2014
Another happy peristaltic pump injector
Start of my Stenner Build
My Stenner Install
 
Good morning, sloany. That is a crazy but beautiful pool you have there...thanks for the pics. Its fascinating.

I like your idea about waiting on the new filter until you've had a season of TFP under your belt because I'm truly optimistic that good chemistry despite the challenges will slay your green foe ;)

But I'm really trying to work out the skimmer phenom in terms of your circulation. In a normal operating condition with more current construction techniques, the skimmers do all the heavy lifting in terms of water circulation. Eg. In my set up, which was a foreclosure swamp I took over, during the initial black water startup I had closed the skimmer and relied on the drain valve to gently filter "a little" until I'd removed all the debris to avoid clogs. The difference between waterflow and circulation with the skimmer open and closed was dramatically different.

When the water is too low for the skimmers, do you turn off the valves to avoid introducing air into the system?

To my mind, if the plumbing principals 70 years ago were remotely the same as today, you would only be able to determine circulation and filtration performance with the skimmers operational -- so addressing the water level might net you more than adding a new skimmer.

BUT given the leaky structure and a desire to conserve water makes that challenging. Which has me thinking that if your leaks are structural and not skimmer related (though both could be in play) it might be worth investigating whether the structure can be retrofit at some point with a vinyl liner. That sounds a little crazy, but it would certainly be cheaper than renovating a limestone structure.

This notion is based on the fact that you're losing half your water with the system closed, which signals to me that your leaking is not strictly a plumbing issue, assuming that on closing the returns are plugged. (then again, the drain(s) could be leaking...)

When you've received estimates, what have the contractors identified as their suspected source of that kind of waterloss? Did they inspect the drains and returns? Did they say they suspect the plumbing? I'm curious, because that kind of info would help you find the best way forward on the filter/skimmer quest.
 
Glad to hear you want to get the chemistry started. It alone will reduce your backwash demand.

I almost always tell people to get the kind of filtration they want, and I lean to sand for ease of use. In your situation, I strongly suggest sand for ease of use, especially with you being away from the property. DE is great, but you can stop it up quickly. Not only that, but you'll still likely have a good deal more backwash demand than normal, so DE will be more hassle. Always making sure you have some on hand out there for replacement. To me, the extra load demands would just make it easier to use sand. Circulation is going to be an issue for you no doubt, and I'm wondering if having two filter systems on the pool is feasible for you. Both drawing from different locations? Just a thought.

I think you should look for a small poly tank if none of the liquidators are big enough. They have black ones at Tractor Supply and similar. Perhaps you can find a HASA supplier in Austin or SA for your big bleach needs. Either way, you'll be hauling a lot of bleach if that's your chlorine source. This is a really unique situation, and I might consider other options for chlorination. Do you plan on a drain like this every year? Even if not, you might manage with another source or suplimental source for Chlorine given your water replacement issues. Answering these might help you decide if you really need a bigger tank. Unless you've decide bleach will be your only source period, then it's a moot point.
 
Thanks Swampwoman...

When the water is low, I plug up the skimmer water intakes, leaving the main drain and 3 auxillary water intakes about 2 feet below skimmers.... at times water level drops even lower and I add pvc piping that essentially serve as straws to suck water up. I am attentive to stopping air infiltration as it is a strain on the pump to lift that high.

I've got a pretty good handle on the source of my leak issues. The pvc plumbing is almost 100% exposed (visible on the creek side of pool, even the main drain) so I can easily verify it is not leaking. I did a bunch of testing with dye & even had the sonar detector guy come once ($400) which led me to re-construct the pool's limestone steps (which had a cavernous void beneath them resulting in leak of 3,000+ gal/day) One of my skimmers did leak, but I have both hired professionals & myself chipped out & replastered cracks. At this stage, I'm pretty sure my leak problem is structural -- numerous small leaks through the pool walls/floor (made from limestone rock and concrete), one side wall sometimes gets wet on the outside, so I'm sure there is still a leak there, but just one of many around the pool.

The conventional pool people I've had over don't get very deep into troubleshooting what I have -- too many unknowns -- and all instantly recommend building a new modern pool inside the old one.

I've have thought about using a vinyl liner, fiberglas, or re-plastering .... once I better understand the underlying structural issues, which may require some patches or supplemental bracing in a few areas. But that's a 2017 or later project.
 
I looked on HASA site and nothing within a 125 miles of me.

Since I have surplus bandwidth on my 3hp Intelliflow (the old sand filter can't handle full flow) I have thought about adding a 2nd filter either in series or parallel -- do some pool owners do that? My pool guy told me just to get the biggest sand filter I could find.

My primary sanitizer for 3 seasons has been chlorine tabs & my CYA is almost always 30 or 40, very rarely getting up to 50... perhaps that is due to the leakage rate and makeup water, but I've never really had issues with high CYA. So for me, maybe using tabs in conjunction with bleach would be OK.

I have not looked into bleach demand for my pool, but assume it to be in the 1 to 2 gallon's per day range. Going forward I probably will keep the pool topped off (50,000 gal) and expect my CYA will hover around 30. What bleach demand should I expect in the heat of summer?

Thanks.
 
Ideally we like to see pools use about 2-3 ppm of FC per day - less is always better. :) Much higher and we watch closely for organic growth. That monster of a pool you have at 52K though will use about 1.5 gallons for 2ppm of FC. So if you got-by last year at about 1-2 gallons, you did pretty good I would say. Depending on your tree cover (shade) and direct sunlight on exposed water, that will also drive your ideal CYA. I'm in the country, so the sun is on my pool all day which requires a much higher CYA (for me). You might be much different. I agree that your water turnover helped save from you from ridiculously high CYA levels. At the same time, those tabs are acidic so they will lower pH too, so just be aware. Feel free to experiment with our Poolmath Calculator (Link in my sig) so you can see expected levels and chemical requirements for your size pool.
 
Sloany said:
3) Upgrade Filter: Based on forum input I am considering putting this off another year. I am definitely going to re-plumb my equipment pad (which is slowly sliding into the creek) -- the main reason I thought it timely for a new filter. Does anyone like Pentair's Quad DE?. I've noticed that the Texas input thus far (including from my initial pool guy) favors big sand filters over big DE or cartridge filters.
Click to expand...

I don't know about you "nutty Texans" but this crazy Arizonan LOES his QuadDE-100 filter :crazy:

My pool is only 16,000 gallons and I have a QuadDE-100 so it's definitely oversized relative to the pool volume BUT I also have a 3HP IntelliFlo, so it's not oversized relative to that. One thing I love about the filter is that, because it's oversized, I backwash it maybe, maybe, 4 times per year total. I also tear it down once per year. Even so, I could go longer stretches between backwashes as my system pressure starts off around 10psi and almost never goes higher than 13psi even after long stretches between backwashes. I still get spectacular flow rates out of the returns even when at the higher (dirtier) pressures.

I like the Quad design because it's basically Pentair's Clean and Clear cartridge filter system except they put in different cartridges to handle the DE. So, when tearing down, it is very easy to remove the cartridges and clean them. Unlike a gird style filter where you have lots of grids to clean, the four cartridges, I feel, are easier to get out and put back on the manifold. The nice part is if I decided in the future I did not want to mess with DE anymore, you can technically convert it back to a Clean & Clear cartridge filter just by installing different cartridges (though Pentair will not admit it...).

My only gripe is that I think Pentair could have done a much better job designing the internal structure of the filter body to create more turbulent flow and thus utilize the DE better. As it is designed right now, A LOT of DE just settles into a thick mud on the bottom of the filter and rarely gets stirred up. I don't follow their recommendation of using a full charge (10lbs) with every backwash because that is just ridiculous. You barely remove 50% of the DE with a backwash so I only add back 4-lbs or so with each recharge and so I don't have a lot of DE consumption. I think I'm on my second 25 lb box of DE and it's been a few years now.

Water clarity is always crystal clear and, at night, I barely see any of the "floaties" you normally see in pools with lower filtration sizes (sand and cartridge).

So, as long as you don't mind messing with DE and if you have the budget for it, I'm 100% sure you'll love the results you get from a QuadDE filter.

My opinion, FWIW....

Best of luck to you,

Matt

PS - Oh, and just stick with the standard push/pull plunger valve for backwashing. Pentair sells a multiport valve manifold for the QuadDE systems but those multiports have terrible head loss associated with them and can really restrict your system flow.
 
I've learned a lot about the place, but am ready to eliminate some problems & reduce my silly troubleshooting workarounds.

Since you mentioned history, a little more about the property, which probably has the oldest house still standing in Helotes (built in 1858 by a guy who was captured by indians as a kid and fought at the Alamo/Battle of Cos in 1835). Pool was built in 1946 by an owner who was a a college swimming champ. Our kitchen is in a separate cabin (built 1869) that still to this day has no A/C and heats with a fireplace. In essence, the pool is our primary summertime climate control... a 90 degree kitchen is not so bad if you are in a wet swim suit.

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Sloany said:
Since I have surplus bandwidth on my 3hp Intelliflow (the old sand filter can't handle full flow) I have thought about adding a 2nd filter either in series or parallel -- do some pool owners do that? My pool guy told me just to get the biggest sand filter I could find.

My primary sanitizer for 3 seasons has been chlorine tabs & my CYA is almost always 30 or 40, very rarely getting up to 50... perhaps that is due to the leakage rate and makeup water, but I've never really had issues with high CYA. So for me, maybe using tabs in conjunction with bleach would be OK.

I have not looked into bleach demand for my pool, but assume it to be in the 1 to 2 gallon's per day range. Going forward I probably will keep the pool topped off (50,000 gal) and expect my CYA will hover around 30. What bleach demand should I expect in the heat of summer?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I am quite new to this forum but it seems your situation is quite different than the typical case here in that you have a very quick water replacement due to leaks. What do you estimate it to be per day? If it is high enough, your needs might really be well served with chlorine tabs since you will constantly be loosing CYA. You would need to calculate whether the daily loss is similar to your replacement, but it is possible that you can do most of your routine chlorination with tabs unlike most of us who mainly loose water through evaporation. You did not comment on why not use a salt water chlorinator but that might be problematic in that if you are constantly leaking water, you would also constantly need to replace the salt.
 
I love it! Totally amazing. I will look at all the pics you want to post of that great old place. I am with you on the pool as the climate control. We spend so much time in the pool and outside that we wind up having to turn up the AC to 85 or so just to keep from being way too cold.
 
Nothing constructive to add...but will say that I'm captivated by the story of your pool! It's more of a living being than concrete shell.
 
This forum has been very helpful and has led me to refocus spending to improve my pool experience... would love to get input on:

Pentair IntelliChem - does anyone have feedback on this system or other automatic liquid dispensing systems? given the frequent periods I am away from my big pool, this seems useful but expensive. Would be reassuring to hear some positive feedback on this system.

Paramount Equipment Side Debris Canister - hope there are positive reports on this -- it seem perfect for a pool that takes in a lot of unwanted debris. I am fortunate in that I think I can modify my true drain hole at bottom of pool (for emptying pool) with an MDX-R3 (leaf eating) main drain cover that feeds along with current main drain into the EDC.
 
Wow what a story.

Thanks for posting more photos.....looks like one of your skimmers is external to the pool and you had mentioned a lot of the plumbing being external.

Loads of character! And it looks HUGE!

Thinking out loud here from what I know of your setup, if it were me, I'd definitely convert it to vinyl lined and also have it setup with a salt water chlorine generator.

I couldn't fathom the effort of keeping a 50k gallon pool chlorinated with bleach. an SWG setup would be a no brainer there in my opinion.
 
^i think being creekside and conservation-minded with a sand filter that requires backwashing, Sloany had previously decided against swg. Which is a reasonable consideration in a wetland/watershed area that is known to breach occasionally. While swg only requires 10% of ocean salinity, and can in some cases be mitigated near a watershed, its always up to the owner's personal comfort level (where not outlawed) ;)

On the other hand, Sloany, in the event you were unaware, regular chlorine of any type and muriatic acid does also build up salinity via byproduct that sometimes can be near the order of swg salinity (mine is 3500 ppm...and swg requires 3500 ppm...so its a wash, so to speak. I also have 900 feet of terrain before my watershed area and an area I drain to.) But that is abnormally high due to a lack of drain down for water table reasons, soft water usage, etc.

Others do report salinity at about half that.

In your case, your leaking means you likely don't build up as much salinity. But im just throwing that out there in the event you were tempted to consider swg and were trying to calculate net impact.
 
I don't think an SWG will reasonably work in a 50,000 gallon pool. The largest residential SWG on the market (Pentair IC-60) running at 100% output for 24hrs per day would only generate a little over 4ppm FC. If the plumbing is indeed leaking, keeping the salt level up to spec will be a constant battle.
 
Here's my two cents worth. If you're constantly having to add water you're going to be constantly chasing it's chemistry. Also, have you figured out how much that's going to cost you over a year or two? I think the initial advice from the pool company you received is the way I would go. In the long run it's going to be the best thing to do. That pool is huge. I would build another pool inside that one and be done with it.
 
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