Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
I fully agree...after considerable research on this alternative, as I too had thought about going this route, I came across far more negative anecdotes than positive ones.
How good are electronic ph meters?
- Thread starter nutria
- Start date
I fully agree...after considerable research on this alternative, as I too had thought about going this route, I came across far more negative anecdotes than positive ones.
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
I couldn't be more pleased with going the Stenner auto dispensing of my acid. I have never had such rock solid PH readings. With a dual spill over spa and plenty of ph creep from that much aeration, I suffered for years going the manual acid dispensing method. What a drag. Since I installed the Stenner pump/tank combo, I achieved the full automation you strive to achieve. And I couldn't have achieved that success without the invaluable help from ppl on this site (my belated thanks to those of you who shared your experience and knowledge).
Might this be in your future?
It might, yes. At the moment I am reluctant to have an acid dispenser in the open because I have small children,so I would need to build an enclosure for the tank and dispenser. I have too many projects...
The primary reason that pH meters are calibrated to two points is so that they are lined up on the proper mV curve. It's a range and calculation that the brains of the meter can "see" so that it knows what it should be displaying. Generally, if you are running a more alkaline system, it's best to cal to 7 & 10. Some meters require a 3 point each time. Usually those with a salt bridge, but not always.
Storage in 4.0 or sensor solution is usually fine, but it points out that pH meters, or controllers need frequent upkeep and calibration if you want the best dependability. This is why you may hear or interpret things that perhaps sound "negative" about them here on the forum. They must be maintained, and replaced, but this is often downplayed by the pool equipment and automation marketers. The crucial need for proper care and maintenance is true of the cheapest, and best pH monitors/controllers available at any price. We aren't against them, but many people put them in thinking that's it, because that's what they are sold, and it just isn't true.
Storage in 4.0 or sensor solution is usually fine, but it points out that pH meters, or controllers need frequent upkeep and calibration if you want the best dependability. This is why you may hear or interpret things that perhaps sound "negative" about them here on the forum. They must be maintained, and replaced, but this is often downplayed by the pool equipment and automation marketers. The crucial need for proper care and maintenance is true of the cheapest, and best pH monitors/controllers available at any price. We aren't against them, but many people put them in thinking that's it, because that's what they are sold, and it just isn't true.
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
I believe a lot of the push back to be predicated on an unfair exaggeration regarding the maintenance and storage of these meters. Many meters come with a cap that holds a small amount of the solution - tho sitting one's meter in a small cup of solution when not in use is hardly inconvenient or should be deemed a downside (its jusrpt storage, like what one does with all pool testing tools). Similarly, there will always be somewhat of an overstated take on what is invloved in the calibration of these meters. I don't think your post is intended to convey the impression that ph meters should be avoided because of a very minor investment of time and money involved. It's just that some negative opinions expressed about the use of ph meters are, IMO, misleading and frankly, over the top (not yours).
Jaimslaw, you keep using terms like pushback, and unfair exaggeration, and I just don't see it.
So let me ask what do you see is untrue about the following:
1, pH meters must be regularly calibrated for accurate results on the rough order of once per month?
2, Calibration involves the use of 2 specific calibration fluids which must be stored in sealed containers, or fresh pouches must be opened / new batches must be made for each calibration.
3, These pouches / bottles of reference solution generally have an expiration date, so must be replaced somewhat regularly
4, Probes need to rinsed after each use in de-ionized water and be stored in a typically low pH (4.0) storage solution when not in use
5, The calibration process involves rinsing the probe in de-ionized water, then in 1 reference solution, this then must be confirmed / adjusted on the meter, rinsed in de-ionized water to prevent cross contamination, then the second reference solution which must be confirmed and adjusted.
6, pH probes are delicate instruments and do not withstand abuse
7, That the accepted variation in pool pH for most pools is fairly wide, and does not require accuracy to 2+ decimal places that a digital pH meter can provide.
8, That there are a number of points that can cause errors to show up with these meters if you do not have a second meter on hand that has it own separate calibration fluid to cross check the first meter. (ie cross contamination occurs on the reference fluid, sensor looses calibration due to drying out, etc.) particularly if one is stretching out the calibration interval.
9, That the calibration process if done correctly typically takes at least a couple of minutes as it takes time for the reading and temperature to stabilize.
For reference for those that may be following along here is a you tube video showing the calibration process How to Calibrate a pH Pen - YouTube
So let me ask what do you see is untrue about the following:
1, pH meters must be regularly calibrated for accurate results on the rough order of once per month?
2, Calibration involves the use of 2 specific calibration fluids which must be stored in sealed containers, or fresh pouches must be opened / new batches must be made for each calibration.
3, These pouches / bottles of reference solution generally have an expiration date, so must be replaced somewhat regularly
4, Probes need to rinsed after each use in de-ionized water and be stored in a typically low pH (4.0) storage solution when not in use
5, The calibration process involves rinsing the probe in de-ionized water, then in 1 reference solution, this then must be confirmed / adjusted on the meter, rinsed in de-ionized water to prevent cross contamination, then the second reference solution which must be confirmed and adjusted.
6, pH probes are delicate instruments and do not withstand abuse
7, That the accepted variation in pool pH for most pools is fairly wide, and does not require accuracy to 2+ decimal places that a digital pH meter can provide.
8, That there are a number of points that can cause errors to show up with these meters if you do not have a second meter on hand that has it own separate calibration fluid to cross check the first meter. (ie cross contamination occurs on the reference fluid, sensor looses calibration due to drying out, etc.) particularly if one is stretching out the calibration interval.
9, That the calibration process if done correctly typically takes at least a couple of minutes as it takes time for the reading and temperature to stabilize.
For reference for those that may be following along here is a you tube video showing the calibration process How to Calibrate a pH Pen - YouTube
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
I believe you forgot another nine steps or so...you know 1) having to hold the meter in your hand, 2) having to turn on the meter, 3) having to unscrew the cap of the ph solution, 4) replacing the battery once a year or two 5) screwing the cap back on 6) the agonizing minute to await the reading....7) having to turn off the meter....
Those who use these meters and also, those who have read my earlier posts about the combined two minutes involved in both calibrating and using the ph meter will understand your strong bias against these meters. That's unfortunate because it is a false picture of the amount of one's time and effort to use these meters. So having already addresed your points in my earlier post, I can dispense with a point by point rebuttal.
You see, I and others who find it to be absolutely no "hassle" or "gross inconvenience" to use these meters never advocate to others that that need to use them; nor that they should replace the ph comparator block (except for many here who have posted great difficulty reading those blocks). Yet, whenever the subject of PH meters is raised, there are those who feel it necessary to go out of their way to disparage PH meters, and in a "avoid at all cost" manner. I guess that will continue to occur..and for reasons that will always perplex me.
Those who use these meters and also, those who have read my earlier posts about the combined two minutes involved in both calibrating and using the ph meter will understand your strong bias against these meters. That's unfortunate because it is a false picture of the amount of one's time and effort to use these meters. So having already addresed your points in my earlier post, I can dispense with a point by point rebuttal.
You see, I and others who find it to be absolutely no "hassle" or "gross inconvenience" to use these meters never advocate to others that that need to use them; nor that they should replace the ph comparator block (except for many here who have posted great difficulty reading those blocks). Yet, whenever the subject of PH meters is raised, there are those who feel it necessary to go out of their way to disparage PH meters, and in a "avoid at all cost" manner. I guess that will continue to occur..and for reasons that will always perplex me.
I'm not against them, but I want people to be aware of the values and pitfalls when using them. I don't comment to discourage them entirely, just to bring the awareness. Many of the people that buy them is so that they can forget about pH maintenance worries when the opposite is actually true. Some people love to tinker with these sorts of things, and I happen to believe if you put one in, you should be one of those types of people who enjoy it, that's all.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,411
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I think multiple different ideas are being conflated here.
As for pH meters (pen-type, handheld or tabletop), I see nothing wrong with owning and using one. If it makes reading pH easier, hey, whatever floats your boat. For me, 5 drops of R-0004 in a comparator block is no big deal so I have no urgent desire to own a pH meter. And, at the end of the day, who cares how you arrive at the pH value as that makes little difference to what steps you will take to adjust your pool chemistry, if needed.
The other concept is what the OP was asking about which is more along the lives of a pH control system for a pool. That is a much more involved task and one fraught with greater possibilities for error and accidents. A flaky probe could cause you to dump an entire tank of acid into the pool (mostly from a home-brew type setup) which would be bad. At the very least, automation of pH can make you a little lazy unless, like me, you have rampant OCD, and being lazy about pool pH is not a good thing.
At the end of the day, we're all on the same team here and I think what we're arguing about is whether our '67 Mustang looks better in red with a white pin-stipe or jet black....
As for pH meters (pen-type, handheld or tabletop), I see nothing wrong with owning and using one. If it makes reading pH easier, hey, whatever floats your boat. For me, 5 drops of R-0004 in a comparator block is no big deal so I have no urgent desire to own a pH meter. And, at the end of the day, who cares how you arrive at the pH value as that makes little difference to what steps you will take to adjust your pool chemistry, if needed.
The other concept is what the OP was asking about which is more along the lives of a pH control system for a pool. That is a much more involved task and one fraught with greater possibilities for error and accidents. A flaky probe could cause you to dump an entire tank of acid into the pool (mostly from a home-brew type setup) which would be bad. At the very least, automation of pH can make you a little lazy unless, like me, you have rampant OCD, and being lazy about pool pH is not a good thing.
At the end of the day, we're all on the same team here and I think what we're arguing about is whether our '67 Mustang looks better in red with a white pin-stipe or jet black....
Jaimslaw, As I said above, I am not against pH meters, in fact I own a couple of them (handheld pen, and bench top meter) so am aware of what is involved, I just don't use them for the pool because of what JoyfulNoise said, it is just far easier to use 5 drops of R-0004 and the comparitor block