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Thread: Water feature pump help

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    Nursenini's Avatar
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    Water feature pump help

    Our main pump for the pool is going to be the Hayward Tristar VSP. We will have a wall with 3 scuppers and a spa with an overflow. The spa has a blower motor. Not sure if there is another pump for it as well or not.
    My question is, what kind of pump should I request for my water feature wall? I believe the PB has a 1hp pump planned. Should this be a VSP as well?

    Thank you for your time!
    Denise
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    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    By having a separate pump for the water feature this means you can operate the water feature at the same time you operate the spa. It also means this is probably the feature that will be the least used. All you want to do is provide water to the water feature. A good energy efficient single speed 1 hp pump should be adequate for this use. It doesn't have to be 2 speed or VS because all you are doing is pumping water through the water feature. The volume of water should be controlled by a adjustable Jandy valve.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    nini, joyfulnoise (Matt) is the one to pm and ask to join this discussion. He seems to know quite a bit about this.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    I agree with gwegan, that should be fine. Yes, Matt is a fan of dedicated water feature pumps. I'm sure he'll chime in.
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan View Post
    By having a separate pump for the water feature this means you can operate the water feature at the same time you operate the spa. It also means this is probably the feature that will be the least used. All you want to do is provide water to the water feature. A good energy efficient single speed 1 hp pump should be adequate for this use. It doesn't have to be 2 speed or VS because all you are doing is pumping water through the water feature. The volume of water should be controlled by a adjustable Jandy valve.
    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    I agree with gwegan, that should be fine. Yes, Matt is a fan of dedicated water feature pumps. I'm sure he'll chime in.
    Great! So it sounds to me like what the PB is doing will be fine for what I need.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    nini, joyfulnoise (Matt) is the one to pm and ask to join this discussion. He seems to know quite a bit about this.

    Kim
    Thanks, Kim!
    Denise-TFP Guide
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    Water feature pump help

    Ha. Looks like I'm becoming (in)famous

    If all you're running are scuppers, I would NOT use a pool pump. Too much head (pressure) and you'll need to add a diversion return to the pool. If you operate a low head plumbing system (open pipe scuppers) using a high head pump (pool pump), you will make the pump cavitate and noisy. Your only option will be to intentionally add back pressure (loss) to the output side of the pump by introducing a shut off valve of some kind and/or the diversion return (an extra return to the pool). Basically you're choking the flow down to match the pumping curve. Why? What's the point of installing the wrong pump for the job only to have to add loss (wasted energy) to it to make it work right? I've never understood why PBs do this???

    Waterfall pump. You want a waterfall pump for scuppers NOT a pool pump. If your PB can't figure that out, then you need to talk to the plumbing sub directly.

    Sorry if I sound short about this but this is exactly the error that was made in the waterfall on my pool and it drives me nuts every time I look at my equipment pad and see a 3HP WhisperFlo pump sitting there to drive a waterfall!! 3 STINKIN horse power?? I could slap the PB for doing that.


    Matt
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Now we know how he really feels! Hey, that is a nifty idea! A waterfall pump for a waterfall. Learned something new today. I also read this thread which indicates that it is important to understand the head pressure of the waterfall plumbing first, Waterfall suggestion: 75 or 120 GPM? (video)).

    Here are some Hayward waterfall pumps.
    TriStar Waterfall | Pumps | In Ground Pool Pumps - Hayward Pool Products
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    LOL Matt! That is SOME waterfall you have there. Can you hear INSIDE the house when it is running???????

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Is it going to be a bad thing if he uses a 1hp pump? If the 1hp is a pool type pump and not a waterfall pump, is it still too much pressure?
    Denise-TFP Guide
    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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    Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursenini View Post
    Is it going to be a bad thing if he uses a 1hp pump? If the 1hp is a pool type pump and not a waterfall pump, is it still too much pressure?
    Hard to know. Perhaps if you can find out the exact model of the pump he intends to use and if you can post the flow rate specs for the scuppers, we can help figure it out.

    At the very least, you'll need a shutoff valve on the pipe feeding the scuppers so that you can fine tune the flow.

    Also, how high are the scuppers above the wall drain (I assume the PB is installing a wall drain as the water feature supply) and much length of pipe (diameter too) is being run from the wall drain to the pump pad and then back to the scuppers.

    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    LOL Matt! That is SOME waterfall you have there. Can you hear INSIDE the house when it is running???????

    Kim
    Haha. Yeah, well, if Niagara Falls ever needs help improving its flow, they can always borrow my pump


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Just to add my 2 cents. I also have Pentair 3hp VSP to run pool , spa, and spillover. My 3 scuppers on the wall are run by 3/4hp Pentair Whisperflow ( about 80 foot run and 4 foot rise ). All 3 scuppers have valves to regulate flow so they all look the same. This way per my PB you can run scuppers while in spa and it does not take away flow from each other. Works as advertised!
    8500 gallon IG Pebble Sheen with Spa. 3hp Pentair VS Intelliflo ( pool ), 3/4 hp WhisperFlo ( water feature ),Pentair Racer, 400K Pentair heater, Pentair 500sqft Cartridge filter, EasyTouch 8, Stenner 45mp2 15gallon wired to ET8

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by rphpool View Post
    Just to add my 2 cents. I also have Pentair 3hp VSP to run pool , spa, and spillover. My 3 scuppers on the wall are run by 3/4hp Pentair Whisperflow ( about 80 foot run and 4 foot rise ). All 3 scuppers have valves to regulate flow so they all look the same. This way per my PB you can run scuppers while in spa and it does not take away flow from each other. Works as advertised!
    Thanks, good to have that data point.

    To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, here are the pumping curves for various WhisperFlo pumps -



    So, if you want to remain on the pump curve, you need to match the flow rate and head loss. On your 3/4HP pump, if you know how much flow each scupper is getting and total it, then you can look across the graph and find out, approximately, how much TDH there is (you can convert TDH to pressure). Basically what you're doing is using the shutoff valves to add enough head loss to the pipes to get to the flow you want. The PVC pipe that connects everything together has fairly low head compared to the choke applied by the shutoff valves. I bet if you opened up those shut off valves to fully open (low head), you'll not only shoot water out of the scuppers but the pump will rattle and cavitate (sounds like marbles in the wet end) like crazy.

    Now consider that I have a 3-HP WhisperFlo. Even if we assume my waterfall operates at 100 GPM flow, I have to add ~ 80ft of TDH to the system or else I'll be so far off the pump curve that my pump will cavitate like crazy. I have both a shutoff valve on the pipe leading to the waterfall AND the output of the pump is split between the waterfall and a single wall return to the pool. The 3-way valve is set to approximately split the water 60/40 (return/waterfall) and the shutoff valve on the waterfall is probably 80% closed. That's the only way to get the pump to quiet down, I basically have to choke the pump off.

    This is why I think pool pumps are a terrible idea for water features in a lot of cases. Now look at the pump curve for a waterfall pump -



    Notice how you can get just as much flow from the pump with A LOT less pressure. You still might need shutoff valves to slightly adjust the flow, but they are a much more efficient choice if the stinkin' PB would spend about 15mins doing some simple TDH calculations....oh, and, waterfall pumps are cheaper too...hmmmmmm, wonder why PB's don't use them more often......hmmmmmm......
    Matt
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    I agree with Matt, a waterfall pump would be a better choice and much more efficient choice if energy use is of a concern.

    But to add to the questions that have already been asked:

    What is the width of each scupper and/or do you know the target flow rate for each?

    What size pipe is the PB planning for the scuppers and what is the distance from pump to scupper?

    Do the spa jets run on a separate jet pump or does the VSP power the jets?
    Mark
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    These are all great questions. The plumbers are coming in the morning to stub in plumbing. I'll try to find out about the pipe. I believe it's 2" but I'll confirm it.

    I haven't picked out the scuppers yet. They usually use box scuppers but I like the radius ones and the U shaped. I'm thinking 6" or 8" wide. They will be on an 18" high wall. I've never heard anything about a wall drain.

    Ill call the PB office tomorrow to get the model # of the pump being used.

    Thank you you for all the info!
    Denise-TFP Guide
    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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    Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by Nursenini View Post
    These are all great questions. The plumbers are coming in the more to stub in plumbing. I'll try to find out about the pipe. I believe it's 2" but I'll confirm it.

    I haven't picked out the scuppers yet. They usually use box scuppers but I like the radius ones and the U shaped. I'm thinking 6" or 8" wide. They will be on an 18" high wall. I've never heard anything about a wall drain.

    Ill call the PB office tomorrow to get the model # of the pump being used.

    Thank you you for all the info!
    Denise,

    The pump that runs the scuppers needs to get its water from somewhere just like your pool pump does. Your pool pump uses a combination of skimmers and a floor drain to get input water. It would be an unusual setup for a water feature to use the same sources so, typically, a PB would add a wall drain (looks just like your floor drains only built into the wall) to have a source of water for the suction side of the water feature pump.

    If you can provide the detailed plumbing schematics for the pool, that would be helpful.

    Also, if you plan to purchase the scuppers from a tile store, they might be able to answer the flow rate question.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Denise,

    The pump that runs the scuppers needs to get its water from somewhere just like your pool pump does. Your pool pump uses a combination of skimmers and a floor drain to get input water. It would be an unusual setup for a water feature to use the same sources so, typically, a PB would add a wall drain (looks just like your floor drains only built into the wall) to have a source of water for the suction side of the water feature pump.

    If you can provide the detailed plumbing schematics for the pool, that would be helpful.

    Also, if you plan to purchase the scuppers from a tile store, they might be able to answer the flow rate question.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006
    That makes sense! Thanks for the explanation!

    I was given a catalog to pick the scuppers from. It's http://www.bobewaterandfire.com/

    I wasn't given any sort of detailed plans or schematics for our pool. Is this something that is normally given to homeowners?

    No plumbers so far. We got a fair bit of rain last night so not sure if we are a go today or not.
    Denise-TFP Guide
    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Ok, I know you haven't picked yet but can you narrow down your scupper choices to one or two types? It looks like most of the standard scuppers on there are 15-20GPM in flow rate and they have a 1-1/2" diameter attachment. You mentioned your PB/Plumber might use 2" PVC pipe, is that right? If so, they will have to neck down the piping at some point to connect the scupper.

    So, if you have 3 scuppers, you're looking at a total flow rate of 60GPM max. Based on what I showed previously, even the smallest pool pump (1/2HP) would still have way too much pressure. You would definitely be better served by using a waterfall pump on the scuppers from an efficiency standpoint. At 60GPM total flow, even the smallest waterfall pump will provide more than enough head (~14ft TDH) to meet the need.

    Here's what you need to do -

    1. Discuss with your PB and plumber the reasons why they are choosing a pool pump to run the scuppers and not a waterfall pump. You can tell them you have a friend who's a propeller-head and has questioned the sanity of that approach by using.....shock MATH ..... to determine that they are oversizing the pump relative to the need. Don't let them get away with saying, "oh trust me, I build pools all the time and this is how we always do it!" or "Internet advice?? You talk to people on the internet?? Tell me, do you get your medical advice from the internet?? Of course not!! Trust me Sweetie, I know what I'm doing because I'm a PRO-fessional, wink, wink..." If they truly think they know what they're talking about them ask them if they have any dynamic head calculations to backup their choice of pool pump and pipe sizing... (yeah, I can be a royal pain in the you-know-what sometimes...).

    2. Find out how far down the wall the suction source will be for the scuppers and how far above the water surface the scuppers will be? I need total feet of vertical distance that you plan on raising the water.

    3. Find out how far the pipe runs are from the pool to the pump and the pump to the scuppers and the diameter of all pipes being used. Also find out if there will be any 90-deg elbow unions used (that adds to the head loss).

    By knowing all that information, one can easily calculate the TDH for the water feature (hint, hint, there's a website for that) and then, once you know the TDH, you can use those pool pump curves to figure out how much flow you'll have. Here's my bet - even after calculating all the TDH involved, I bet a mid-range waterfall pump will provide more then enough flow. In fact, I will go even further and say that you will still have to add shutoff valves to the scuppers to regulate the flow from one of those waterfall pumps because there will be too much flow.

    At the end of the day, what all this means is that, if you go with a waterfall pump, you can probably save yourself a few hundred bucks (maybe) in pump costs and run a lower electricity cost pump. It will also operate more quietly than a pool pump but a 1HP pool pump is already fairly quiet. So you have to ask yourself if the costs savings is worth the hassle. Yeah, you'll probably tick off the PB a bit by "gettin' all-up-in-his-business" but hey, you're the one laying out the money here so you deserve to get what you want.

    Let me know what you decide to do.

    Matt
    Matt
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    Re: Water feature pump help

    The scuppers I like are the radius and the U shaped, PB usually uses the box shaped.

    I'll do my best to get the information. I'm working a ton so it will probably be next week before I can get it.

    Thank you again for the education and help.
    Denise-TFP Guide
    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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    Re: Water feature pump help

    Good news!! I (innocently ) asked the PB about the pump while they are here (right now) stubbing the pool, and.....They are installing a waterfall pump! To quote the PB, " You don't need much to run those scuppers". We discussed the wall drain and the run of pipe. He said he would know for sure what exact size once they started plumbing the deck and had the runs to the wall. He said it wouldn't need more than 120gpm and most likely much less than that.
    Denise-TFP Guide
    IG 13.6x30 gunite, Radiant Fusion Topaz, 3.6/5.6/4, 14100 gal, 2 skimmer, 4 Hayward LED lights (pool & spa), Hayward Echostar VSP, 2 future fire bowls, raised beam wall w/ scuppers,7x7 raised spa, DE Progrid70, SWG Hayward Goldline, OmniLogic, Hayward 400K BTU heater, stamped colored deck, Dolphin Discovery robotic cleaner, TF100 test kit, Newbie in Bixby Oklahoma

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