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Thread: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

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    Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Our pool plumbing was done before posts were marked for patio cover due to an oversight by our builder. They've cut through new patio decking to create footers for the posts today and when they did, they cut the plumbing lines in three of four footer holes and are suggesting 45 degree bends to go around the plumbing. They've cut multiple plumbing and electrical lines today and builder says the 45 degree bends and junctions to be added will not impede pump performance or give us issues down the road. Of course, they don't warranty the plumbing. Now, the plumbing is 4 inches in diameter and pool company assures us the flow will not be impeded.

    It seems to me that any 45 degree bend impedes the water flow and adds strain to the pump. Plus, plumbing will fail where the joints are located and we'll have many more now due to today's work. Hoping someone who knows more about the plumbing than we do, could provide advice. Could the pool company be correct and we're fine?

    25,000 gallon pool, ozonator with chlorine. Dual pump Pentair Intelliflo VS+SVRS and plumbing is 4 inches in diameter.

    Thank you!!
    Last edited by Marshall; 02-24-2016 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Failed to title correctly
    Inground, gunite pool under construction. Pentair dual pumps, 2 skimmer baskets, pool equipment located 35 feet from pool. Includes spa and heaters.

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Welcome to the forum. Are these lines to your pool? Are you sure they are 4" lines?

    What other options do you have?
    Dave S.
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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Thank you. Yes, they are lines to the pool, both plumbing and electrical lines were cut. I can confirm the diameter with the builder, but I measured the discarded pieces last night, which were 4 " sections. I've asked the builder for all options and re-working the plumbing around the new post footers with bends and junctions is the only option they will provide. They're open to hearing our suggestions, but the only one we knew was to tear up the section of concrete and all of those plumbing lines to start over in that regard. They balked at that and said it would create more problems than solve.
    Inground, gunite pool under construction. Pentair dual pumps, 2 skimmer baskets, pool equipment located 35 feet from pool. Includes spa and heaters.

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    A 4 inch line sounds more like a drain line to me. Residential pool lines usually don't exceed 2 1/2.

    Plumbing lines serving the pool are probably ok. Yes the flow is affected but as long as we are talking 45s rather than 90 s it should not have that much effect. Make sure it's covered with very clean fill or brtter yet sand.

    Electrical is more problematic. If these are the lines between the light niches in the pool and the junction box you want as few curves as possible because you will almost certinally have to run a replace the light cord at some time.

    Move the structure is an alternative. The other solutions are not pretty and expensive.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Are you saying the pipes are 4 inches in diameter on the inside? Are these pipes to carry pressurized water or are they "storm sewer"? If pressurized, what size pump(s) will you have? How many? Any water features?

    Depending on execution, the electrical yields a potential for more problems than the pipes.

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    I may be wrong, but it sounds like the length of pipe that was damaged was in 4" sections. Hopefully the op can clarify though.
    28,000 gallon freeform, Stonescapes Tropics Blue Minipebble with abalone, 3.5' to 8.5' depth. 2 skimmers, 5 returns, dedicated vacuum port, Dolphin Z5 robot. All Pentair equip: EasyTouch 8, IC60 SWG, VS pump, 520 Cartridge Filter, 3 Intellibrites, 2 Color Cascade Bubblers. TurboTwister Slide and 8' Salt System Jump Board. TF-100. My Jan-Mar 2016 build:
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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Thank you, I need to clarify with the builder the diameter and type of lines cut. We have scraps of plumbing that is 4" in diameter, various lengths in sections. I'll find out today and comment again. Thanks!
    Inground, gunite pool under construction. Pentair dual pumps, 2 skimmer baskets, pool equipment located 35 feet from pool. Includes spa and heaters.

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Also, what electrical was cut and how do they recommend making this repair? You do not want to bury electrical splices where they can be a source of problems in the future with no way to access the splices.

    I don't know if I agree with the statement "Plus, plumbing will fail where the joints are located". Properly primed & glued joints are not "prone to failure". Poor workmanship causes things to be prone to failure.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Also, what electrical was cut and how do they recommend making this repair? You do not want to bury electrical splices where they can be a source of problems in the future with no way to access the splices.
    I interpreted the "junctions" mixed in with the "plumbing speak" to be junction boxes. Depending on how those are executed, it could be somewhere between "no way" and "best way out of a bad situation." A few extra ells might be enough to violate code.....

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by ewkearns View Post
    I interpreted the "junctions" mixed in with the "plumbing speak" to be junction boxes. Depending on how those are executed, it could be somewhere between "no way" and "best way out of a bad situation." A few extra ells might be enough to violate code.....
    With the wires being cut underground I can't believe there would be sufficient slack in the wires to bring them above ground where they could be property spliced in boxes.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    With the wires being cut underground I can't believe there would be sufficient slack in the wires to bring them above ground where they could be property spliced in boxes.
    Yeah, I agree. I think the only thing "reusable" will be the conduit and pulling new wire is in order. Personally, I'm a great fan of service loops, but I don't think even that would help in this instance....

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Wow, thank you all for the wonderful input! The outcome of this issue today is that after analyzing the damage further, only two drain lines were cut (above response alluded to this possibility since lines were 4" in diameter). These will need to be re-routed, but less problematic than smaller plumbing lines to the pool. The electrical was cut to one pool light and we're still waiting on the electrician this afternoon, but we've insisted to the builder that the electrician sub pull new wires and no splicing occur. They have agreed pending the professional opinion from the electrician. We won't budge, though.

    Again, your input has been so valuable! Thanks a hundred times over.
    Inground, gunite pool under construction. Pentair dual pumps, 2 skimmer baskets, pool equipment located 35 feet from pool. Includes spa and heaters.

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
    Wow, thank you all for the wonderful input! The outcome of this issue today is that after analyzing the damage further, only two drain lines were cut (above response alluded to this possibility since lines were 4" in diameter). These will need to be re-routed, but less problematic than smaller plumbing lines to the pool. The electrical was cut to one pool light and we're still waiting on the electrician this afternoon, but we've insisted to the builder that the electrician sub pull new wires and no splicing occur. They have agreed pending the professional opinion from the electrician. We won't budge, though.

    Again, your input has been so valuable! Thanks a hundred times over.
    If the wire between the light fixture and the first junction box was cut then no splice is allowed under the National Electrical Code.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
    Wow, thank you all for the wonderful input! The outcome of this issue today is that after analyzing the damage further, only two drain lines were cut (above response alluded to this possibility since lines were 4" in diameter). These will need to be re-routed, but less problematic than smaller plumbing lines to the pool. The electrical was cut to one pool light and we're still waiting on the electrician this afternoon, but we've insisted to the builder that the electrician sub pull new wires and no splicing occur. They have agreed pending the professional opinion from the electrician. We won't budge, though.

    Again, your input has been so valuable! Thanks a hundred times over.
    Fortunately we don't have to rely on the opinion of your electrician IF the damage occurred prior to a junction box. The National Electric Code makes it pretty clear in section 300.13, I don't think any of the exceptions apply to your case. If they say there is an exception, find out which one so we can take a look.

    300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity — Conductors
    (A) General Conductors in raceways shall be continuous between outlets, boxes, devices, and so forth. There shall be no splice or tap within a raceway unless permitted by 300.15; 368.56(A); 376.56; 378.56; 384.56; 386.56; 388.56; or 390.6.
    Gunite Pool/Spa, CLI Caribbean blue crystal stone smooth, Pentair 3hp Intellifo VS, Pentair Quad DE Filter, Pentair 400k BTU Heater, KK Prowler 820, Pentair PSL4 controler with Screenlogic wifi, Inline Chlorinator, Pentair 1.5hp Spa Blower, TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speed Stir. My 2016 Pool Build

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
    It seems to me that any 45 degree bend impedes the water flow and adds strain to the pump.
    The more head loss a pump experiences, the lower the flow rates and the lower the power draw which means that it is actually under less strain with the added fittings. However, it is also true that the pump would be a little less efficient but probably not enough to notice.
    Mark
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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The more head loss a pump experiences, the lower the flow rates and the lower the power draw which means that it is actually under less strain with the added fittings. However, it is also true that the pump would be a little less efficient but probably not enough to notice.
    Are you saying by adding fittings a pump can operate more efficiently.

    If you expect a constant GPM, and continue to add fittings the pump must work harder to move the water through the bends because of the increase in Ft Of Water in the line.

    Pump power draw is a result of RPM, flow depends on ft of water & output of a given pump at an RPM. Want more flow on a fix head, increase RPM.. maxed out on RPM and want more flow, reduce ft of water(reduce bends or increase pipe size)

    for example here is a curve for a simple pump.

    Gunite Pool/Spa, CLI Caribbean blue crystal stone smooth, Pentair 3hp Intellifo VS, Pentair Quad DE Filter, Pentair 400k BTU Heater, KK Prowler 820, Pentair PSL4 controler with Screenlogic wifi, Inline Chlorinator, Pentair 1.5hp Spa Blower, TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speed Stir. My 2016 Pool Build

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    If the electrical that was cut was between the pool and the junction box you want to try to keep the conduit in that line as straight and free of bends as possible. Because when you replace the light in 5 years you need to run a cord through that conduit. An as stated above no splices inside conduit. I can't think of an exception that applies, in part because this is a cord not simple wire.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Plumbing was cut and builder wants to fix with bends and junctions

    Quote Originally Posted by bradj View Post
    Are you saying by adding fittings a pump can operate more efficiently.
    No, that is not what I am saying. Please read my post again, I clearly state the pump is less efficient with more head loss.

    I am merely pointing out that with a centrifugal pump, if you increase head loss by adding more fittings but keep RPM the same, flow rate decreases and power draw decreases. For all centrifugal pumps, VS or other, if you move from right to left on the head curve at a constant RPM, brake HP reduces and thus power draw of the motor reduces. This means the pump motor is actually working less hard with more head loss. But since flow rate decreases faster than power draw, efficiency drops as measured by GPM/watt.

    However, if you then increase RPM to compensate for that extra head loss to get back to the same flow rate, only then does the pump motor actually work harder. But I don't think most POs would bother tweaking the RPM to compensate for such a small change in flow rate.
    Mark
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    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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