Pool Construction - Best Practices

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt,

Does the engineering contractor hire the contractor that does the soil borings? Do they normally do soil borings and generate a soil strengths report?

Chris

Chris,

I'd have to leave that up to Brian (bdavis466) or Gordon (gwegan) to answer as they are most knowledgable.

My sense from what builds I have seen is that few controlling authorities (counties or municipalities) require a soil analysis with every build other than to specify a certain amount of compaction. There may be more detail to this so I'll let others speak from their experience.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[setsailsoon]

Thanks Matt,

Hopefully they'll reply. One thing I'm starting to realize is that an OB needs significant contractor management skills. Hard to do without experience. All these subcontractors have interfaces with one or more of the others. If there's not a builder (managing contractor in my terminology) managing the interfaces falls to the owner. He must have the skills to manage the interface and the time to do it - could be tough and expensive to learn this on the first job.

Chris

 

[bdavis466]

Matt is correct. Soil borings are not required unless some sort of preexisting issue is present or the municipality requires it (which is extremely rare). Aesthetics are not really of any concern (unless there is something that projects above the fence line). You will find that cities do not give much concern to pools since they place very little liability on the city itself.

Plans are usually drawn by a designer based off a 3D drawing (Pool Studio) and don't really show much more than shape, location, setbacks, electrical service run, gas line and BTU requirements, and elevation changes (slopes, etc). These basic plans then go to the pool engineer (almost always Pool Engineering Inc. in southern California), they review the plan and provide a generic sheet with the basic structural details that meet the requirements of nearly all soil conditions. Anything out of the ordinary can get a custom detail, this is most often for grottos, big waterfalls and structures near or on top of the bond beam.

Soil conditions really aren’t a huge concern from an engineering standpoint because the excavation nearly always is far enough into undisturbed natural soil that issues are uncommon and compaction is very good. The pool shell itself is also very overbuilt for the day to day stresses it encounters.

Once the plans and engineering are in hand, the owner goes to the building department, pays the fees and gets a permit. A standard pool is usually approved right there over the counter.

Owner/builder pools often use the same subs that a pool builder would use or even the same employees that do side work. The typical subs are excavation, rebar, plumbing and electrical (or both), gunite/shotcrete, coping, tile, decking, plaster and landscaping. As Matt said it is very common for the homeowner to purchase the pool equipment and supply it to the plumber/electrician.

Inspections in municipalities would need to be scheduled by the homeowner and consist of a city inspector that inspects:
1.) Setbacks, excavation, rebar, plumbing and rough electrical (Pre-gunite inspection)
2.) Bonding grid, bond wire, pool lights, GFIs, door alarms, barrier fencing (Pre-plaster inspection)
3.) Final inspection - Everything else

More inspections are often required based on the complexity of the project and work being done.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thanks Matt,

Hopefully they'll reply. One thing I'm starting to realize is that an OB needs significant contractor management skills. Hard to do without experience. All these subcontractors have interfaces with one or more of the others. If there's not a builder (managing contractor in my terminology) managing the interfaces falls to the owner. He must have the skills to manage the interface and the time to do it - could be tough and expensive to learn this on the first job.

Chris

I think this is one of the most perilous aspects of O/B pool projects. Designs, finding subs, getting quotes, permitting, etc, is all mostly clerical type work with a willingness to have a phone stuck your ear for the better part of a day. Dealing with the subs on-site and their interrelated needs is the real trick. This is one area where PBs have some advantage - they have a dedicated subset of subs that they work with on an ongoing basis. They have past relationships, they know what the subs need, they can use their prior work and current book of jobs to leverage changes and smooth over problems, etc, etc. The O/B pool project route is a single-job to a subcontractor; nothing more that a check upon completion. If they do a good job for the owner, so be it. If they do a lousy job or get frustrated with an overbearing or micro-managing homeowner, no sweat as there are few consequences of merit against a poor job.

We have discussed many times here on TFP how a homeowner can use financial leverage with percentage hold-backs on payments to the subs but few subs will allow that. There's no net-30 payment to subs, most want cash-in-hand upon completion of work. This is a very tough area and one where many O/B pool projects hit the shoals....

Matt

 

[setsailsoon]

Matt and Brian,

Thanks so much for the great insight you're contributing. The more I learn the more interesting this gets. We'll soon be ready to move to Stage 2 discussion and I'll try to capture and/or summarize the information for Stage 1. But I'll give it a day or two in case there are others out there that have something to contribute but they've been thinking about one of the best Super Bowls I've seen!

Chris

 

[gwegan]

Chris:

You should read on of Trouble Free Pools classic threads: Pool Build - California Dreaming - 3 Years Closer

It details an OB of a massive complex pool with an owner who generally knows what he is doing.

The main problem for OB is that you don't know what you don't know. Brian above described the design and permitting stage in California, generally the most complex state. One of the reason to hire a pool builder is that they know local conditions and quirks in the permitting process. They know the site plan has to show the hillside right behind the pool and the engineer is going to want to know about that.

For example, my entire neighborhood and half the City of Rancho Cordova to the west of me is built over hydraulic mining tailings. Large cobble some gravel and some occasional soil. Excavated pool walls have a tendency to collapse. Two of my neighbors pools had major wall collapses as they were being dug and they brought in a gunite crew to stabilize the walls prior to plumbing and rebar. Pool builders know that. Some of the excavation subs know that. But Joe homeowner probably has no idea and will be blaming his excavator for digging a bad hole.

Another point that homeowners don't understand and was pointed out by Brian is that pool plans in the US are generally very basic documents. Brian posted a very good set as an example in another thread that showed how to handle a special design issue involving a gazebo. But most plans don't even include details for many areas that residential plans would have to have to survive plan check. Most are approved over the counter. The piratical effect is that pool builders and their subs fill in the details. Not with what you think you should get but with what they usually build. You get the PB's standard pool or the subs standard pool. Is the main drain plumbed to the skimmer equalizer port or to the pad? Even if you specify to the pad if the plumber does it the other way as his default there is a 75% chance yours will be wrong-- because the crew builds what they always build. They are not bad, the plans are rudimentary and so they have a standard thats to code and they do that.

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris:

You should read on of Trouble Free Pools classic threads: Pool Build - California Dreaming - 3 Years Closer

It details an OB of a massive complex pool with an owner who generally knows what he is doing.

The main problem for OB is that you don't know what you don't know. Brian above described the design and permitting stage in California, generally the most complex state. One of the reason to hire a pool builder is that they know local conditions and quirks in the permitting process. They know the site plan has to show the hillside right behind the pool and the engineer is going to want to know about that.

For example, my entire neighborhood and half the City of Rancho Cordova to the west of me is built over hydraulic mining tailings. Large cobble some gravel and some occasional soil. Excavated pool walls have a tendency to collapse. Two of my neighbors pools had major wall collapses as they were being dug and they brought in a gunite crew to stabilize the walls prior to plumbing and rebar. Pool builders know that. Some of the excavation subs know that. But Joe homeowner probably has no idea and will be blaming his excavator for digging a bad hole.

Another point that homeowners don't understand and was pointed out by Brian is that pool plans in the US are generally very basic documents. Brian posted a very good set as an example in another thread that showed how to handle a special design issue involving a gazebo. But most plans don't even include details for many areas that residential plans would have to have to survive plan check. Most are approved over the counter. The piratical effect is that pool builders and their subs fill in the details. Not with what you think you should get but with what they usually build. You get the PB's standard pool or the subs standard pool. Is the main drain plumbed to the skimmer equalizer port or to the pad? Even if you specify to the pad if the plumber does it the other way as his default there is a 75% chance yours will be wrong-- because the crew builds what they always build. They are not bad, the plans are rudimentary and so they have a standard thats to code and they do that.

Gwegan,

Wow, incredible! I quick scanned through the 70-some pages and it's packed with information. I notice on the first page he says " definitely recommend designing your pool with your spouse together so later she cannot say you ignored her input or that you never took her viewpoint into consideration. Definitely worth the money if it prevents many fights later." This is one of several best practices (early alignment of sponsor/stakeholders). He may not be a PM but he's got some natural talent!

Thanks for the link and info. I'm sure it'll contribute a lot.

Chris

 

[And5555]

On the owner build thing, I did not have any experience with construction, and the project went great. I had a few advantages in that I knew somebody who got me started and I research things and manage projects well. Other than that, I was a total noob. It went well for me.

As as far as who designs, I recommend working with regular pool builders to get different ideas and see what the market is like. Then you know what you want and you can have a rough estimate on cost (generally about 75% of quoted prices, at least in Austin those are the margins). Once you know what you want, you can either design it yourself if you're tech savvy or pay someone. I basically traced one of the designs that I liked in Pool Studio.

A few notes on dealing with subs:
1) they all pretty much know what to do. It made me realize just how much the subs do vs the pool builder. Each sub that I used showed up, did the job, and asked just a couple questions. Like clockwork.
2) they all know each other and know who's good and who's bad. If you start with a good Gunite company, references will come like Dominos. The electrician knows several subs, the plumber knows people, etc. As long as you start with reputable, good contractors, they should be able to refer you to good, reputable contractors. A big key here is finding good, ethical people, which can sometimes be hard in the pool world, I think. For me, because I had a friend in the business (played in church band with him), I got started down a good path of ethical people.
3) while you don't have the volume business to hang over contractors heads, there are a couple things that work in your favor: a. They have a high chance of getting paid right away compared with a lot of builders out there (several don't take care of contractors well), b. I've heard it said that it doesn't matter if they don't do a good job because of repeat business, but they do have a reputation to uphold among the other subs and they do work a lot on referral business. If I tell me plumber that the guy he referred me to did a crappy job or didn't answer my call, he might not refer to him anymore. At the very least, he might give the guy a call on my behalf.

One key that I've found for success in mine and others projects is finding someone to act as a consultant for a fee. The guy that did much of my work was a good guy, always willing to take a call for me to ask him a question (like, "hey. One of the patio guys suggested gravel and the other one road base. What do you recommend?).

Finally, I wrote a post recently showing my costs with the OB and with a list of pros and cons from my perspective: My cost savings by going owner builder route

 

[Nectarologist]

The last thing to discuss before we get out of this boring Stage 1 is just a little bit about contracting. Seems like most use a Pool Builder in a "General Contractor Role". Does anybody (builder or owner) have experience with a different way? If so what was it and where is it applicable?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

Hello. I'll preface this with letting everyone know that I have a vinyl liner pool so how I used the PB will likely vary with gunite and may not be practical. But that's also a reason I wanted to share because it may help one decide on how to go about building (i.e., not build this way). That being said I'm sure some people do owner builds with vinyl as well.

My PB was sort of acting like a GC but not 100%. I got bids from the electrical and stone (for coping) companies myself and paid them directly myself. He gave me recommendations of people he typically works with and I was free to call my own people too.

What my PB did do: came up with ideas for which pool would fit my yard (shape, layout etc), drew plans, purchased the equipment, excavated, put pool together (plumbing, equipment, poured pad for equipment) got the permitting done, ordered/installed liner, arranged inspections and made sure everything was working before the job was considered done. He coordinated the electrical work and I arranged for the coping work on my own (landscaping followed 3 months later and the rest is to be complete this spring).

Thanks,
Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Re: Pool Construction - Best Project Practices and real life example

Folks,

I know this project management stuff is pretty dry and probably even boring to many members on this site. So I thought I'd use my next pool project to illustrate how this process is used. Small upgrades use a simplified version of the overall Project Management Best Practices. Every stage is used but some are very short. I hope this may be a better way to get engagement of the forum on this topic because this process can mean your projects are performed on time, within cost and only money needed to achieve what we started out to do are spent. Also very importantly there will be no nasty surprises! I'd appreciate any comments and questions related to this as Construction Project Best Practices and also any specific comments, concerns, or suggestions you may have on my project itself. If you're not interested in the Project Management stuff please to go to the last paragraph as I need your help in completing Stage 2 of this project.

So Robin and have an automation upgrade to perform and we're' at Stage 2 - the define stage. This is where we evaluate alternatives to accomplish the Project Objectives. Following documents how we've used Project Management Best Practices so far:


Project Sponsors: Robin (my wife) and myself

Stage 1 Project Overview and Objectives:

Overview:
When we first moved back to the house from my consulting gig in Texas we thought we'd wait a few months to see if we used the pool enough to justify upgrading the basic Intermatic t104/6 timer system. Turns our we are using it a LOT and I'm getting tired of the trek in the dark back to the controls with a flashlight to mess with valves and control settings every night that we're in the pool and spa. While were at it we'd like this system to do more than just avoid the trips in the dark to the pool equipment. Robin and I have had several discussions to arrive at the following objectives for this project.

Project Objectives:

• Full automatic control with wireless remote capability using local wifi and internet, with android and Apple apps
• Control for existing 2 speed Jandy 1 hp filter pump, gas jxi heater, lights, solar heater system
• Plenty of room for expansion for future pool features
• Minimum hassle configuration of controls
• Ability to self-install and maintain
• Ability to upgrade in the future but no $ to be spent on ability to upgrade to future SWG.
• Robin wants the ability to "press one or two buttons on a wall-mounted controller to make the pool work for her" She will probably not use the phone wife capability. She wants simplicity and features we need.
• Robin wants me to be happy with the wifi capability I want so long as we do everything within budget.
• We expect our cost to be $3000 or less and will confirm before committing to this project and revisit willingness to exceed this amount if necessary.

• We will get input of experts and experienced pool owners at TFP before I commit to this project to reduce risk of surprises
  

Stage 2 Evaluate Alternatives and Define the Project and Execution Plan

Evaluate Alternatives

Installation Alternatives:

1. Hire contractor to buy equipment and install
2. Buy equipment myself and hire contractor to install
3. Do complete equipment purchase and install myself
4. Hybrid - Contractor performs part, I perform part

I've priced pre-qualified contractors and they want $1000-$2000 in labor to do the project. If they get equipment price breaks it's not showing up on their bottom line compared to my cost for online suppliers. I can do this job and have the time therefore I'll self-perform everything and possibly have my electrical sub inspect wiring if required by code (Option 4). Doing this will have the added benefit of making it easier for me to trouble-shoot problems and maintain.

I've looked at several alternatives to define the equipment that will be used

1. Other than Jandy equipment providers
2. Self developed from generic electronics suppliers such as Arduino, Raspberry Pi
3. Jandy proprietary systems, hardware, software

I'd like to make the configuration easier so I'm avoiding option 1 which would likely require a LOT of technical support queries and possibly additional interface equipment. I could build one of these with my hobby type electronics stuff but Robin is never happy with this as it usually doesn't look real pretty and it can result in "glitchy" systems that take a year to become reliable. So I'm going with option 3.

My Design Basis is to install the following equipment manufacturer's recommendations, and local code:

1. System Board RS-PS12
2. Power Center Standard Sub-Panel Power Center No 6614-LD
3. 6886 Indoor Control Panel Aqualink RS8 Pool/Spa Combo
4. iAquaLink Interface Kit IQ20-A

Stage 2 Summary

We have a budget and a plan for execution above. I'll also sell my existing power panel with breakers on e-Bay to reduce costs and I'll get comments here to be sure I haven't missed anything in this plan that could impact the project (as required in our project objectives above). I'd very much appreciate any comments on the system I've defined and I'm finding Pool Zoom is the best price but I've never used them so I'd appreciate any comments on Pool Zoom as well. After I get comments and carefully consider them I'll finalize price and (hopefully) get the other Sponsor's OK to proceed.

I hope this helps illustrate the Project Management Process in a way that gets better traction here and very importantly gets me the final OK of the other Sponsor (my wife)!


Chris

 

[pooldv]

My favorite online pool store by far is Sunplay. They are a real store, they have great prices and great service. Every time. I have bought many things there from little doodads to automation to a heat pump.

I like your plan. I always try to do the same if I can keep my wife patient enough through the process. We installed a replacement geothermal heat pump recently and I was able to save about $9000 from the first quote and $1500 from the incumbent. First quote was $19,600, final cost was $10,800 with other quotes at $13,500, $12,000 and others. We got an excellent unit and had a flawless two day install from a great company whom I had never done business with before. It took about two months to go through the whole process though. We had an added step of refining the equipment choice twice during the quoting process to get us to the best option.

 

[yellow12]

This is a great thread. I went PB because I had a bad experience farming out my own sub contractor on a previous build (just for decking) in a rural area of eastern PA, the time, energy, research, and building knowledge required to oversee all the subcontractors, the availability of good subcontractors vary by area and some places I have lived just don't have a large pool to pick from. Phoenix is great, but trying to even find a good available plumber in AZ white mountains is challenging for adding an iron reducer to a well house much less a full pool build. In Tucson, we even had trouble having people call back for other non pool related projects, etc... It really looks like if you have the skill, time, and contacts, you can save a significant amount of money or get more for your pool. I have been very impressed by what others have accomplished on this site even in our area doing and OB. If I was retired, I would try it and might in the future if I don't chicken out at the last minute.:study: All I know is the more I study, the more things I worry about.lol

 

[setsailsoon]

My favorite online pool store by far is Sunplay. They are a real store, they have great prices and great service. Every time. I have bought many things there from little doodads to automation to a heat pump.

I like your plan. I always try to do the same if I can keep my wife patient enough through the process. We installed a replacement geothermal heat pump recently and I was able to save about $9000 from the first quote and $1500 from the incumbent. First quote was $19,600, final cost was $10,800 with other quotes at $13,500, $12,000 and others. We got an excellent unit and had a flawless two day install from a great company whom I had never done business with before. It took about two months to go through the whole process though. We had an added step of refining the equipment choice twice during the quoting process to get us to the best option.

Pooldv,

Great information! I don't have enough pool experience to know the vendors very well and your recommendation of Sunplay is invaluable to me. They always show up in the "short list" on price but I need to know about price and customer service when I'm talking about $3000. Your loyalty to them is a great indication they have both.

Many thanks for quick response and I'll keep everybody posted as we complete Stage 3 (final design and +10% cost estimate) and Stage 4 - Execution.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

One other point to make that might affect your calculations - warranties from the major manufacturers on pool automation equipment are often voided when you self-install. In order to get the full year or extended multi-year warranties, you have to have a licensed pro do the install. Pentair is notorious for it and I believe Jandy does as well. Not sure about Hayward.

If the warranty is worth something to you, then you may have to consider a hybrid approach to the installation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[setsailsoon]

This is a great thread. I went PB because I had a bad experience farming out my own sub contractor on a previous build (just for decking) in a rural area of eastern PA, the time, energy, research, and building knowledge required to oversee all the subcontractors, the availability of good subcontractors vary by area and some places I have lived just don't have a large pool to pick from. Phoenix is great, but trying to even find a good available plumber in AZ white mountains is challenging for adding an iron reducer to a well house much less a full pool build. In Tucson, we even had trouble having people call back for other non pool related projects, etc... It really looks like if you have the skill, time, and contacts, you can save a significant amount of money or get more for your pool. I have been very impressed by what others have accomplished on this site even in our area doing and OB. If I was retired, I would try it and might in the future if I don't chicken out at the last minute.:study: All I know is the more I study, the more things I worry about.lol

Yellow,

Glad you like the thread and thanks for contributing your rationale for your decision to go PB for construction. The info you list is a good indication you are using best practices in Project Management and it should serve you well with the result. Please do update us as you continue the process.

Later on I hope to start two more threads if there's sufficient interest:

• Best practices for Pool Owners/Potential Owners to know about Contract Terms and Conditions
• How to know if your estimate is really +10%

In the meantime, I'll keep this post updated as we complete Stage 3 and 4. Stage 3 is where we get the +10% estimate so it's a critical decision point for us.


Chris

- - - Updated - - -

One other point to make that might affect your calculations - warranties from the major manufacturers on pool automation equipment are often voided when you self-install. In order to get the full year or extended multi-year warranties, you have to have a licensed pro do the install. Pentair is notorious for it and I believe Jandy does as well. Not sure about Hayward.

If the warranty is worth something to you, then you may have to consider a hybrid approach to the installation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

Matt,

Thanks for the excellent point! I need to add this to the evaluation and do my homework on it so I won't be surprised.

Chris

 

[pooldv]

I forgot to mention in my heat pump quest to always get three bids, more if needed. My best bid was the third company. They were so great to work with and so much better than the other two that I didn't feel the need to seek more bids. Which is another point, find someone you like and are comfortable dealing with. There were a few minor issues in our process but the relationship was more than comfortable enough for us to work through them easily.

Same went for my pool build, it was my neighbor who I knew for 6 years before we talked pool. I broke my three bid rule here. I didn't get any bids. We just had a chat in the back yard one day and after about three conversations we started building a pool. On a hand shake and a sketch. No plans, no contract. Seriously. I have one sketch and a pool from them and they have four checks from me.

 

[kimkats]

LOL a sketch and a handshake with a neighbor beats out a contract. LOVE It!

Kim

 

[setsailsoon]

I forgot to mention in my heat pump quest to always get three bids, more if needed. My best bid was the third company. They were so great to work with and so much better than the other two that I didn't feel the need to seek more bids. Which is another point, find someone you like and are comfortable dealing with. There were a few minor issues in our process but the relationship was more than comfortable enough for us to work through them easily.

Same went for my pool build, it was my neighbor who I knew for 6 years before we talked pool. I broke my three bid rule here. I didn't get any bids. We just had a chat in the back yard one day and after about three conversations we started building a pool. On a hand shake and a sketch. No plans, no contract. Seriously. I have one sketch and a pool from them and they have four checks from me.

Pooldv,

Great points... we should do a thread on what's important in selecting a contractor so you get the best quality at the lowest total cost (hint: initial bid price is 3rd or lower on the list).

Thanks.

Chris

 

[pooldv]

Yes, price is not top on the list. The contractor we selected was the middle price in the initial apples to apples quote before refining the equipment.

19,600 punted immediately
13,800 chosen
12,000 incumbent