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Thread: indoor endless pool

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    PDXJenn's Avatar
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    indoor endless pool

    Hello all!

    As a new Endless Pool owner (3 weeks now), I've REALLY appreciated this site, so thank you all in the forum for being immensely helpful as I started up the new pool!

    For the most part I have the hang of things, but I keep reading about CYA levels and how they interact with things, so my question is this-
    For a fully indoor pool that's covered unless in use, my CYA is ok just being nonexistent, right? The pool store told me not to worry about it, but I've found their advice was wrong on several other things, so now I'm not sure!

    Also, my Taylor kit K1005 tests for TC and FC, which I then subtract to get CC. So basically both those colors have to be the same shade of pink, or I add more chlorine until they ARE the same, right? Endless recommends keeping chlorine at 0.5-1 with 1/4 cup liquid bleach after use, which for the most part is working.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    Jenn
    indoor 8x14 original Endless pool (3800 gallons)
    dark blue vinyl liner, inline UV bulb, recessed automatic retractable cover
    covered unless in use

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    HI! Welcome to TFP! We would LOVE to see a picture of your pool and area!

    I do not have an answer for you about your levels as I am still learning about indoor pools. I am sure someone will be along shorty to answer you questions.

    You are VERY smart to NOT trust the pool store.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    CYA is good to have in an indoor pool or hot tub as it helps moderate the strength of the chlorine, while still leaving your chlorine levels at a high enough strength to maintain an adequate sanitizer bank (your hair and swim suits will thank you), for the technical details Chemgeek has written on the subject numerous times which you can find with a forum search. In theory even a low level of CYA in the 5-10 ppm range with the appropriate proportional FC level is enough to do this, however since the common CYA test have trouble measuring CYA below 20-30 ppm, it makes much more sense to have that 20-30 ppm CYA target level and an appropriately proportional FC of 2.5 - 3.5 ppm. I would write more, but need to leave the house soon.

    Ike
    p.s. while I wait on my ride to get here, let me put it in a simple analogy using mythical rounded numbers, lets say a pool with no CYA needs an FC of .1 ppm for sanitation purposes (close to real value), now lets say you have a very small pool and oxidizing bather waste (sweat, skin cells, etc.) requires .3 FC ppm per hour and you swim for 2 hours per day, it becomes obvious that even without the sun burning off chlorine that you would need to maintain an FC of somewhere above .7 ppm FC (.1 +.3 +.3) in order to keep the FC level above sanitation minimum. Lets say 1 ppm FC real world, or 10 times your sanitation minimum just to cover all that bather waste oxidation. By adding CYA you moderate that active FC strength greatly, back down into the realm of what it would be if you only had . 1 ppm FC and no CYA for sanitation purposes, but you still maintain FC at 2.5 - 3.5 ppm for a bank to supply FC for oxidation of bather wastes.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    PDXJenn's Avatar
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Thank you both for your replies! Learning a lot from this forum but still figuring out how to navigate things. !

    Ike, the CYA explanations makes sense I think, yes. And theoretically since there's no sun burn off, I could probably maintain a low CYA indefinitely. I've been afraid of the "need to drain half the pool" threats I keep reading!

    Kim, I'll see if I can upload a pic.

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    PDXJenn's Avatar
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    Any other Endless Pool owners?

    I'm a new EP owner and would love to know who else is out there.

    Enjoying my pool so far, trying to figure out why pH creeps up steadily, and still find balancing a challenge but I'm getting better!

    Jenn
    indoor 8x14 original Endless pool (3800 gallons)
    dark blue vinyl liner, inline UV bulb, recessed automatic retractable cover
    covered unless in use

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    PDXJenn's Avatar
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    vacation maintenance tips?

    So with my new indoor Endless Pool, I pretty much balance chemicals daily, adding liquid chlorine after my swim and adjusting pH if necessary, and checking TA every few days. This is going pretty well for the most part.

    I'm worried already about when we go away on vacation and I need a friend to watch the pool. Obviously there won't be bather load while we're gone, but I'll still need to maintain chlorine, PH, and TA.

    How do you manage vacation times? Any advice on how I can simplify it for a friend who has a small hot tub and is a math guy, but isn't used to balancing a bigger pool?

    Thanks!

    Jenn
    indoor 8x14 original Endless pool (3800 gallons)
    dark blue vinyl liner, inline UV bulb, recessed automatic retractable cover
    covered unless in use

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Any other Endless Pool owners?

    Hello Jenn. There are a number of things that can cause pH to increase. Aeration from swimming, fountains, and swimmers splashing can do it. New plaster (N/A for you) and even salt water generators (N/A for you as well). But another big factor is an elevated TA level. If TA is high, it can allow pH to rise as well. If you would like, go ahead and post a full set of numbers for us with your TF-100 or Taylor K-2006 and we'll let you know if any chemical adjustments can/should be made. Have a nice weekend.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: vacation maintenance tips?

    Hi Jenn. Generally the biggest challenge for pool owners who go on vacation and don't have an automated chlorine feeder is how to keep the pool chlorinated. Since you are indoors, your pool typically should have a lower FC/CYA ratio, so chlorine demand is a bit less than us outdoor folks. Still, it needs routine feeding. If no one will be using the pool in your absence, you should hopefully know in advance how much bleach your pool needs each day (or couple days) to maintain your ideal FC level. That should be easy for your friend to handle. With no swimming and/or aeration, your pH should hold its own in the mid 7s unless the TA is too high which would allow it to climb. So like we discussed in your other thread about rising pH, let's see what your TA level is and go from there. If you are away for a long time (perhaps more than a week), you may need to give your friend a crash-course in chemical testing - at least for FC and pH which are not that difficult. If there is a possibility of your pool needing acid for pH while you are away, ensure your friend is aware NEVER to add bleach and acid at the same time. Those two do not play nice together.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Here's a link or two that I think Ike may have been referring to:
    CYA in Spas and Indoor Pools
    Indoor pool - CYA or no CYA?
    CYA 0 Recommended Shocklevel for INDOOR pools
    A bit of reading, but you get the point.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: vacation maintenance tips?

    Keep track of your testing. Write it down and keep it. After a while you will see a pattern. It will change with the weather and bather load. That way you can tell your friend "add ?? of bleach each day" and call it good. Do you have your pump on a timer? If not you might want to think about it. It makes weekend get aways and vacations much easier.

    Oh do you REALLY think your friend will not add bather load while you are gone?????? LOL

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    I have consolidated your three threads. It's easier for us frequent responders (and others) when your issues are under one thread.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Consolidated, ok, that's fine too!

    So EP guidelines tell me to aim at:

    .5-1 ppm of chlorine, which seems to be 1/4 to 1/2 cup of Clorox daily, more if many people swim.
    I can't usually keep it that low because I get cc and need to add more to eliminate it, so I've been keeping it at around 2ppm.
    Currently it's at 5 because I slammed it and am waiting for it to drop before we swim again.

    TA should be 80-120ppm, 100 being "ideal". The color change begins at 90 and is done changing at 100.

    pH is 7.5 and likes to creep up, so I've been adjusting that pretty regularly with sodium bisulfate to keep it there.

    CH is 170 and they say "ideal" is 180, with 175-250.

    And EP does not recommend any CYA indoors, so mine has always been at 0.

    The Taylor K-1005 kit that came with the pool seems to have everything I need, just small bottles so I'll need to replenish more.

    Soooo- I'll raise the CH a tad and continue to wait for the chlorine to come down. And I'll go hunt for some stabilizer and try to get up to 20 CYA.

    Do you count when the color change starts or ends as the value?

    Anything else you think I should be doing?

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    A few notes from me to help keep you going:
    - Stabilizer (CYA) can be found at local hardware store (HD/Lowes) or Wal-Mart in the pool section. The active ingredient on the container will be Cyanuric Acid. Use the "sock method" to soak the stabilizer for a day or so until dissolved. Remember, it takes about a week for the new CYA level to increase on your test.
    - Your pH may be rising more than you like because the TA is around 100. Here at TFP, we've learned that TA can actually be outside (lower) from what pool store or manufactures list as "ideal" and it's just fine. You might try letting the TA comes down to 80 and see if the pH holds better. If pH still rises too fast, try a TA of 70.
    - Remember, you lower pH AND TA together with muriatic acid. Never add acid and bleach at the same time. Always have the pump running during additions.
    - Whenever I'm testing, I count the last drop resulting in the change of the color in the vile.

    Hope this helps. I'm sure others will follow with input as well.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    I'll try aiming more at 80 for TA and see if it changes how often the pH needs adjusting. That sounds good!

    The pump runs 24/7 unless the swim current is on. I use the swim current to add chlorine and mix it, but have just been letting the pump do its thing for broadcasting anything else and then brushing it up if not dissolved. Because I don't want to over aerate...

    I don't add bleach and acid at the "same" time (thanks for the reminder though!) but does that also mean I can't lower pH in a situation like right now where the chlorine is high? I have done it within a few hours I'm sure. Oops?

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    When we say at the same time we mean putting them both in the pool one right after the other. If you wait about 30 mins. between adding one or the other you are fine.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Oh ok, good. Then no, I've never done that. Phew!

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    When we say at the same time we mean putting them both in the pool one right after the other. If you wait about 30 mins. between adding one or the other you are fine.

    Kim
    Not trying to hijack the thread, but please tell us why we should not add acid and bleach at the same time. Thank you


    ~14K gallon - AquaRite AQR15 SWG - pool Newly plastered on April 9 2016
    TF100 kit - STA-RITE SYSTEM3 Modular Media Filtration - Model S8M150
    Pool water supply from on site water well = CH of ~350 and TA of ~350
    Doheny's Discovery Automatic Robotic Cleaner/Pentair Model 011018 VS Pump
    Sundance Altamar Hot tub separate from pool / central Oklahoma

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Because it will create chlorine gas, which is obviously not safe.

    Just wait a few minutes between chemical additions as they will mix quickly and avoid the risk.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Quote Originally Posted by PDXJenn View Post
    Hello all!

    As a new Endless Pool owner (3 weeks now), I've REALLY appreciated this site, so thank you all in the forum for being immensely helpful as I started up the new pool!

    For the most part I have the hang of things, but I keep reading about CYA levels and how they interact with things, so my question is this-
    For a fully indoor pool that's covered unless in use, my CYA is ok just being nonexistent, right? The pool store told me not to worry about it, but I've found their advice was wrong on several other things, so now I'm not sure!

    Also, my Taylor kit K1005 tests for TC and FC, which I then subtract to get CC. So basically both those colors have to be the same shade of pink, or I add more chlorine until they ARE the same, right? Endless recommends keeping chlorine at 0.5-1 with 1/4 cup liquid bleach after use, which for the most part is working.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    Jenn

    very helpful

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    Re: indoor endless pool

    Welcome, Jen.
    I have had our indoor endless running for about 9 months now. I don't have nearly the depth (hah) of pool experience as many on here, but I have managed to have easy to maintain clear water despite daily use including two toddlers.
    I found it maddeningly impossible to maintain an FC level with our UV sanitizer until I switched to dichlor for a 5 pound bucket to get the CYA level up to 30, then it was smooth sailing. FC now drops from 4 to 2 over 3-4 days, add 16oz bleach and I'm good again. I like the free Pool Pal app, which logs everything and calculates how much to add back. It seems to correlate with the pool math calculator here, but is more convenient for me.

    FYI I had a minor incident with the black nylon zip tie they provide to keep the nature 2 system inside the filter degrading; it broke up and went through the pump, breaking off 5 of the 9 impellers. Endless was kind enough to warranty the pump, but sent it UPS ground to Canada, costing me $70 brokerage. The kicker was they sent a separate shipment of 3 more of the ties (not gonna use them), which cost me another $70! LPS guy is pretty reliable and told me nylon and chlorine don't get along, so it's kind of stupid they supply these ties.

    There was also a fair bit of trouble getting the therapeutic spa jets to seal to the vinyl. Turns out the jet models they use are spec for a thicker fibreglass or acrylic spa, and not recommended for vinyl. No wonder they were such trouble.

    I get a bit of upward TA drift with the aeration provided by even the automatic 4x daily cycling of the jets, from 7.5 up to 7.8 over a month, back down easily with acid.

    Hope you are enjoying your pool. I'll watch this space for more questions.

    Scott

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