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Thread: CYA.......and others

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    CYA.......and others

    First of all I would like to say I'm located in the Philippines and so far my search for a knowledgeable pool maintenance guy has been in vain. Looks like I might have to give whoever this guy is going to be the basic skills to read the pool. The problem is my knowledge is pretty basic. The pool is quite new and so far only Chlorine have been introduced to it. I still need to ask the PB if the Cl he place had CYA on it or not.

    So here's the problem, It's an outdoor pool and I need to have the recommended CYA 40 ppm. Calls to pool suppliers either results into... "cya what?!!!" or "yeah it's in a tablet form"... which most likely means it's Cl w/ stabilizer. Sounds like I might have to go this route to get my CYA up to roughly 30-40 ppm. I'm assuming it doesn't have to be exact since we also don't have anyone checking or offering testers for this. Now the Trichlor specs I get is TRICHLORO ISOCYANURIC ACID 90% Chlorine Tablet (200 grams/tablet) 3" dia x 1" thick. If I go for a lower target value just to be on the safe side.... using the Pool Math and plugging 20,000 gals and 40 ppm CYA target. I need 107 oz by weight or 3 kg. But since I'm getting my CYA via Trichloro pucks.... and if Trichlor contains 52% of cyanuric acid by weight, I should need about 6 kg of Trichloro to get correct estimate of CYA. About 30 pucks. Is this correct?

    Also if any of the members here are in the Phils know where to get the chems needed then please help me out. No one in the pool building/supplying seems to know anything ....but how to sell.

    Frustrating.

    FYI: so far i've been placing liquid jugs of Cl into the pool. Our Clorox local version here doesn't indicate the concentration so I've just guessed it to be a few % lower than Clorox. So far it has been pretty ok when I check using the 5 drops tester OTO. A jug gets it to the recommended 3 ppm. Unfortunately this doesn't last more than a couple of days.


    1.jpg
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA....

    You can use tri-chlor pucks if you cannot find CYA powder alone. for every 10 ppm of chlorine the pucks provide, they will yield about 6-7 ppm of CYA.

    Are you able to test for CYA?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Re: CYA....

    Nope. No CYA and nothing to test for it. From what I gather it's chlorine, soda ash, and muriatic only here. No one seems to test anything but chlorine and ph. I've called a few pool suppliers in the area. Will see if I can look for some more pool suppliers to call.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA....

    If you cannot test, then you can calculate it just as accurately.

    Using PoolMath, go to the bottom of the page and you will see "Effects of adding Chemicals". Find the size of your pucks, enter the data and you can determine how many pucks it will take to get to the desired CYA.......then you switch to liquid chlorine.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: CYA....

    looks like how it's going to be. Called another fairly large and known store.... NADA! Pucks it is.

    thanks for the tip. i forgot about that bottom portion of the pool math. Awesome!
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA....

    Can you assume that the TA is 0 when the pool is new? Or should I just assume it's 50 and try to hit the 100 target with that assumption? Dump some baking soda in there at least. Rather than nothing. I still need to look for a store that sells test kits that's more than the usual ph and Cl.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    CYA.... and others

    Quote Originally Posted by peachy View Post
    Can you assume that the TA is 0 when the pool is new? Or should I just assume it's 50 and try to hit the 100 target with that assumption? Dump some baking soda in there at least. Rather than nothing. I still need to look for a store that sells test kits that's more than the usual ph and Cl.

    So I found out that the initial Cl introduced were Calcium Hypo 70% to get to 3 ppm.
    Water with a TA of 0ppm is not possible in a pool. Well, you could get close to 0 TA but the pH would crash down to 4.5 or lower.

    I would not indiscriminately throw baking soda in the pool. If you raise the TA too much, your pH will rise and be stubbornly stuck at high levels.

    You need to find a test kit that has either an alkalinity test or has some acid demand drops. You can use acid demand drops to figure out how much acid to add to change your pH by a desired number of units. Even the most basic residential pool testers should have acid demand drop.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: CYA.... and others

    Thanks Joyful. I'm holding it off until I get my tester. I finally found an 8-way Blue Devil pool tester. I'll post back when I get the numbers out. Finally was able to get CYA from them as well.

    To whoever (in the Philippines) might be needing CYA & the more comprehensive pool testers — AP Leisure Corporation
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA.... and others

    TA: 70
    CH: below 60
    CYA: new pool (assumed started @ 0, going up as CYA is added)
    PH: 7.6 (dropping as the CYA is added)

    The plan is add the 96 oz (6lbs jug) CYA to get it just below the 40 target value.... then add a couple of Tichloro tablets later when I get an actual reading. currently I've placed only half of the jug on a sock.... just to take it a bit slow.

    pool math says the PH will come down by 3.67.... that'll drastically drag my pool to the very acidic 4.4 level. did i get that right or am I missing something? that can't be right. should i take that as an oppurtunity to get some borate in the pool? how much do i need to get? I've got 10 kg (350 oz) on hand.

    what's next for me while the PH is dropping? is it time to add Borax or baking soda, if so how much? I don't want to aerate coz I don't have that equipment.

    Joyful, good thing I didn't just indiscriminately dump that baking soda. I'm pretty close @ 70.

    Can an admin move this thread to Just Getting Started I think I'm in the wrong topic.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    Peachy what kind of pool do you have? Vinyl or plaster?

    Do not worry about borates to your pool for a while. That will come after you have learned your pools wants and needs.

    Here is a link for you to show you what you should be doing every day,week, etc. I have it printed out and in my test box.

    Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule

    As you can see you should be testing you PH every day.

    I am also linking you to this one. It will show you what we use on our pools to adjust the different levels.

    Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

    You are on the right track. Keep asking questions as you have them and sharing your results with us.

    I moved your thread for you.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    It's tile— 4"x4" tiles. Thanks for asking coz I was just wondering why tiles were never an option on the pool math. Should I just select "fiberglass".... that should be non-reactive to the water right? Grout is concrete.

    Just an update, I was getting worried with the dropping PH due to the CYA so I went and poured some borax in—3 kg. I'll check in a bit the ph but it's dark now and I'm not sure how accurate that would be. I kinda don't care too much with hitting 50 ppm of the borate. i just want some incidental ppm of borate with the focus really on the correction of lowered ph due to the CYA.

    Thanks Kimkats for moving the thread.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: CYA.......and others

    I do my PH test inside under a brigh light which happens to be my stove hood. I hold a white plate behind the test tube and pull the white plate in and out until I find the color match. It works for me.

    Very few pools are tile...........hummmmmm tile..........I would go with plaster due to the grout.

    I would list it in your siggy so it is there for everyone to see.

    Have you shared a picture of your pool yet? I would love to see one or several.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    Exactly, just calculate as plaster. And congrats, that's the highest end finish you can get. It's very forgiving, and won't effect chemistrsy like plaster, but you don't want low pH degrading the grout. Very nice!
    TFP Moderator
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    28K Gal IG FreeForm, CLI Quartz, Pentair 36"SF & VS Pump, Dolphin M5, Rheem

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    I guess you saw the photo in my first post on this thread. It's actually my parents. I'm just the current babysitter until I get someone trained to just clean and maintain using liquid chlorine.

    So far all the CYA should be in the pool now. The amount of borax I put in may have been a tad too much coz ph is one colour above ideal. I'll do a TA, FC, ph tomorrow. The CYA after a few days once I know they've all dissolve. Anyways it should be around 50. Like what I read, it's a pool.

    What's the colour of MA there in the U.S.? Ours is kinda creamy blurry. I'm not sure why but I just hate the name MA going into the pool ....but HCL is ok. I know it's the same. I like scientific names rather than grocery/toilet cleaner name I guess.

    As for borax being safe, I'm a bit worried coz of its used as an insecticide.... and I've got my kids swimming there too. You know kids accidentally swallow pool water. Heck I still sometimes do.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    Silly question...Why can't OP buy CYA on line and have it delivered?
    35,000 Gal. - 40x20x8 - Plaster - SWG Pentair IC 60 - Barracuda G3 Vacuum - Hayward c1750 Cartridge Filter - Blue Torrent VS 1.5hp pump - Pool is 45 years old.

    "I'd build a deck over my pool if I didn't have a SWG"

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    Re: CYA.......and others

    Borax works as an insecticide because it is abrasive and wears through the exoskeleton of some inspects such as roaches and ants. From what I have read on this site, drinking large quantities of pool water should be avoided. To use for insect control, sprinkle a barrier of it around the area you want to protect. Repeat after it rains since it will dissolve and wash away.
    In ground, 14,000 gallon, white plaster, unheated, stone waterfall, DE Filter, Rainbow 320 Cl, Polaris 3900, FloVis flow meter, F100 test kit, Circupool RJ30+ SWG, Circupool VJ1/Speck Badu EcoM3V variable speed pump.

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: CYA.......and others

    I did see that pretty picture BUT it does not show the tile.......we don't get to see many tile pools.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: CYA.......and others

    Quote Originally Posted by WASP View Post
    Borax works as an insecticide because it is abrasive and wears through the exoskeleton of some inspects such as roaches and ants.
    This is not quite right.

    Borax is toxic to insects because it is actually a systemic toxin. Boron reacts with many different types of diol containing organic molecules and disrupts cellular processes. The boron builds up inside an insects body to toxic levels and cannot be excreted because insects lack the ability to do so. Most mammals have a sophisticated system of electrolyte balance (via kidneys and urine excretion) to handle boron compounds. There are posts in the "using borates" sticky that cover this.

    What is normally used to abrade the wax-like exoskeletons of insects is diatomaceous earth (DE). Once they lose some of the waxy coating on their exoskeletons, the insects die from dehydration as they can no longer regulate their water loss properly. The DE is often mixed with powdered insecticides to boost the killing power. It can be borax but is more often other more toxic compounds like neurotoxins.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: CYA.......and others

    So what do you think Joyful, did I do it alright adding the borax in to negate the drop of ph from adding CYA? do I have to worry about anything else? Can I just balance the ph after a week or so when all the CYA is done? Can I still some baking soda or will that just crew with my numbers?

    Thanks all. I'll try and post a closer shot showing the tiles.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

  20. Back To Top    #20
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    CYA.......and others

    Quote Originally Posted by peachy View Post
    So what do you think Joyful, did I do it alright adding the borax in to negate the drop of ph from adding CYA? do I have to worry about anything else? Can I just balance the ph after a week or so when all the CYA is done? Can I still some baking soda or will that just crew with my numbers?

    Thanks all. I'll try and post a closer shot showing the tiles.
    I assume you added borax because of this statement -

    Quote Originally Posted by peachy View Post
    pool math says the PH will come down by 3.67.... that'll drastically drag my pool to the very acidic 4.4 level. did i get that right or am I missing something? that can't be right. should i take that as an oppurtunity to get some borate in the pool? how much do i need to get? I've got 10 kg (350 oz) on hand.
    You did not need to add borax while adding CYA. All the borax did was unnecessarily raise your pH and will now act as a pH buffering agent which will make it harder to decrease you pH in the future.

    When getting results from the "Effects of Adding Chemicals" section in PoolMath, there is an explicit warning that the results given are not exact and, when making any large changes in chemistry, you should add chemicals in batches and test in between to be sure your not overshooting your target.

    CYA is acidic, but it dissolves very slowly and does not change your pH as much as PoolMath states. Your TA at the time was perfectly adequate for handling any pH decrease from the addition of CYA.

    I respectfully suggest that, when you post comments or questions, please be explicit about what you intend to do and keep your posts BRIEF. Long posts with lots of trailing thoughts and peppered-through with questions will either be ignored by most readers OR, more critically, the questions you ask will be missed.





    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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