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Thread: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

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    Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Neighbor tells me he read your site and thinks he knows everything. He can't help me w this! Darn it. Did he get a diploma? I hope not. Well here is the problem.

    My FC = 10 ppm
    CC = 1 ppm
    pH = 7.85
    TA = 70
    CYA = 100
    CH = 275

    My pool looks great! It's clear and doesn't have any algae. Water temp is 72 deg. He says my CYA is too high. He tells me I need to add 55 oz of muriatic acid. And he says my breakpoint CC is 10. Well that doesn't make any sense since my FC is already there! Now he has me really confused shoving this CYA / Chlorine Chart in my face. Well, looking at that I am beginning to think I dont need to do a thing. How much water would I really need to remove to rebalance my pool as this idiot suggests. Life was easier dealing w the pool store when I didn't know anything or listened to this guy!!

    Can you suggest what to do?
    Thanks,
    Al in South Florida
    6k gal IG plaster diamond brite, resurfaced 2011, cartridge filter, Hayward Pump, Big White Cleaner, Chlorinator (not using), former Pill Addict (TriChlor), Taylor k-2006 Test Kit [Pool Dim.(s) are: 12’ W x 17’ L x 4’ Deep (Avg.) = 816 Sq. Ft. = 6,104 Gal.(s). Filter: Hayward Star Clear C1000 (100 Sq. Ft.) Frabric,(Cartridge type)].

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Al, Welcome to TFP!!

    Well, I'm not sure what he is reading because we don't teach any "breakpoint" chlorination.

    IF (and it is a big if) the numbers you posted are correct then you are close to what we would recommend except the CYA is too high. CYA 100 is usually the pool store answer of it's too high to measure. A pH of 7.85 leads me to believe you are getting these numbers at a pool store or from a Lamont ColorQ. Not much credence is given to pool store testing around here and the Color Q can be just as bad. We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that you need your own accurate test kit.

    So, how are you testing?

    Oh, we don't recommend that our members push our methods in folks faces. Right now I am looking out my window at my neighbors green pool.....
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Welcome. Depending on how you are testing, your CYA could well be over 100. Only way to lower that is to drain and replace water. We'll be glad to help with any issues.
    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
    2 Speed Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 85 g.p.m. 22" 250lb. sand filter hard plumbed
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Hi Tim,
    Well that kit was a Taylor 2006 Kit. He talked me into buying it. So, how much of a 6000 gallon pool would have to be drained to achieve the right CYA level? BTW, the other memeber told me to stop using Trichlor tabs, which Ive done. The blue booklet that comes from taylor discusses breakpoint chlorination to get rid of CC. I read your Slamming page and that is a radically different approach to getting rid of a little CC. My test was just slightly pink at 1 drop and 2 drops made it completely clear indicating the CC reading of 1.0 . Due to my high CYA I would have to add double the amount of Chlorine to Slam. What do you recommend? Maybe my high chlorine has been protecting me from an algae outbreak and staining? Ignorance was bliss and now the wife is chiming in that I am spending too much time with this.
    Al
    6k gal IG plaster diamond brite, resurfaced 2011, cartridge filter, Hayward Pump, Big White Cleaner, Chlorinator (not using), former Pill Addict (TriChlor), Taylor k-2006 Test Kit [Pool Dim.(s) are: 12’ W x 17’ L x 4’ Deep (Avg.) = 816 Sq. Ft. = 6,104 Gal.(s). Filter: Hayward Star Clear C1000 (100 Sq. Ft.) Frabric,(Cartridge type)].

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Do you have a SWG per chance you didn't list?

    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
    2 Speed Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 85 g.p.m. 22" 250lb. sand filter hard plumbed
    Pool Rover Jr., Pool Blaster Max, Diver Dave TF100 Test Kit/Speed Stir
    Margaritaville Frozen Concoction Maker, Liqour Chiller, & Drink Mixer & Party Tub----Collect 'um all!

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Mix a 1:1 solution of pool water and tap water and then test that mixture for cya. Then double the result to get your estimated cya.

    The CC is probably not a problem. Report back the cya test and we can advise from there.

    Perhaps raise the fc to 15 and do an overnight chlorine loss test. Retest the CC tomorrow.

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Alan!! Hi!!!!! I am SO glad to see you here! I need more Florida people on here lol.

    Your friend is on the right track. He got you to do the second best thing you can do for your pool. The first best thing is finding TFP!

    Once you get your cya down (by draining some water from your pool) you will spend MUCH less money and time on your pool!

    Once we get done with your pool your wife will think you are the best pool boy she has ever seen!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Agreed on doing the dilution CYA test. Then pool math can help you figure out how much you need to drain.

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Two things are going on here - CYA and CC

    As James pointed out, 100 is the limit of the CYA test, so you have to do a diluted test. While the full instructions are in the Pool School, here is the short version. Mix 50% pool water with 50% tap water. Use this mixed sample as your test water.

    Pool water......Tap or distilled water.........Multiply result by

    ....1...................1................................2

    In the past we may have recommended further dilutions but history has shown that even a 1:1 dilution introduces error into the computation. Further dilutions introduces errors that are just too high to make the test results usable. If you get another 100 reading with a diluted sample you are well above 200 (I started with 250ish).

    As ot the CC issue, a CC of 1 may is not totally indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are many times I come up with a CC reading of 1, but i generally can narrow it down to a specific issue, like some dead creature in my skimmer basket.

    Only two things "consume" chlorine - organics in the water (like algae) or UV from the sun. So to identify organics in the water we have the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT). Get all the leaves out of the pool, clean the skimmer baskets and run the OCLT. If you loose more than 1ppm FC overnight then we know there is a problem hiding in your pool somewhere.

    When lived in the South Florida area (started in NMB and ended up in Cooper City) Doral was just an unincorporated area west of the airport. But, when I moved to NMB the Palmetto was a local road with intersections and traffic lights......
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Sheriff,
    I do not have a swcg.
    Alfred aka Al
    6k gal IG plaster diamond brite, resurfaced 2011, cartridge filter, Hayward Pump, Big White Cleaner, Chlorinator (not using), former Pill Addict (TriChlor), Taylor k-2006 Test Kit [Pool Dim.(s) are: 12’ W x 17’ L x 4’ Deep (Avg.) = 816 Sq. Ft. = 6,104 Gal.(s). Filter: Hayward Star Clear C1000 (100 Sq. Ft.) Frabric,(Cartridge type)].

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Al,

    I am going to send you a couple of links.

    I have this one printed out and in my test kit:

    Pool School - Recommended Levels

    Here is another link to show you what we use in our pools. Most of it can be bought at Target or Walmart. How neat is that?? Cheap too!

    Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

    Now this link is one that will take come playing with and getting used to BUT it is so worth it. It does all of the work for you by figuring out what needs to be done to your pool and how much of what to use.

    Make sure to change the bottom part to Trouble Free Pool settings.

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

    This is the BIG link. It tells you the what and whys of TFP.

    Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Ok, great!
    1. Using the TFP calculator results, it recommends a WHOLE LOT LESS ACID, 3.8 oz VS 55 oz ( 10 drops to get the color to change much w Taylor Acid demand test). Why such a difference? Something to do w my high CYA?

    2. Did dilution test, CYA is confirmed 100. You are right, calculator says drain 60% of my pool to get CYA DOWN TO 40! 3,600 GALS OF CITY WATER will cost me over $100.00. Ouch. Is that worth it??? Or do I look at it as the cost of initiation into this elite forum? Will I save enough to make it worthwhile?

    Retired and on a budget,
    AL
    6k gal IG plaster diamond brite, resurfaced 2011, cartridge filter, Hayward Pump, Big White Cleaner, Chlorinator (not using), former Pill Addict (TriChlor), Taylor k-2006 Test Kit [Pool Dim.(s) are: 12’ W x 17’ L x 4’ Deep (Avg.) = 816 Sq. Ft. = 6,104 Gal.(s). Filter: Hayward Star Clear C1000 (100 Sq. Ft.) Frabric,(Cartridge type)].

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    Quote Originally Posted by alzan001 View Post
    Ok, great!
    1. Using the TFP calculator results, it recommends a WHOLE LOT LESS ACID, 3.8 oz VS 55 oz ( 10 drops to get the color to change much w Taylor Acid demand test). Why such a difference? Something to do w my high CYA?

    2. Did dilution test, CYA is confirmed 100. You are right, calculator says drain 60% of my pool to get CYA DOWN TO 40! 3,600 GALS OF CITY WATER will cost me over $100.00. Ouch. Is that worth it??? Or do I look at it as the cost of initiation into this elite forum? Will I save enough to make it worthwhile?

    Retired and on a budget,
    AL
    Al,

    Just to verify with the dilution test you came up with 50, multiplied to verify 100 as your true number?

    If at 100 you can do a big drain and refill or do what I did, work on it slowly over time. But, if you do it slowly you MUST be vigilant about keeping your FC where it needs to be. For 100 CYA it should never go below 7. Additionally, you need to avoid most forms of solid chlorine. Trichlor and Dichlor both have CYA in them. CalHypo does not. But, CalHypo adds to CH, which right now you could add some.

    I have a sand filter, so backwashes take water out of my pool, I "changed" water that way. You have a cartridge filter and will not be loosing that much water that way. I also rerouted one of my roof downspouts to harvest rain water into the pool. You just need to make sure you filter out any solids from that water stream.

    The other choice is don't do it all at once. Shoot to get from 100 to 70 right now and see how things go. You now have the knowledge, use it. You can control your pool as you see fit. The only two hard and fast things to worry about are keeping an adequate amout of free chlorine in the pool for your current CYA level and keeping the pH in a reasonable range. For your pool that would be in the 7.5-7.8 area. But, will your pool melt if it's out of that range? No. Leave it above 8 for a long period of time, yes.

    As to the amout of acid to add, I get about 3.5 oz of 31% acid also. 55oz in a 6,000 pool is a lot of acid. While talking about acid additions, Safety first. Wear old clothes and eye protection. I like to get in front of a return on my hands & knees and splash a little water on the pool deck. Then open the acid bottle and partially submerge it in the water. Tilt the bottle to pour the acid in at close to water level, but don't let the bottle get submerged. I don't measure because it's an additional step for me to spill the stuff. Remove the bottle from the water and set it down in the puddle on the pool deck while you replace the cap. Try not to breathe the fumes.. Guess a little low on amount you need, then test again after it circulates well. You can always add more.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    I would treat your neighbor with a bit more kindness....

    1. He is right on a WHOLE lot of stuff and seemed willing to help you.....you need it.

    2. He/she may well be reading your comments so that may not go over so well.

    Next, there is nothing elite about this forum (you were just kidding, right?) but it does consist of some really knowledgeable people that will help you a lot and the cost of their advice will fit your tight budget.

    Last, you can't practice what we teach unless you are willing to LEARN what we teach. There are volumes of info on this website........i would suggest you start with "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    I'll just add, being in Fla. I wouldn't take the CYA all the way to 40 ppm, I'd drain just enough to get to about 60 ppm and start there. Also, you don't have to be in a hurry about it. You can use some rain water to help you from time to time. Just drain some water out of the pool when you know it's going to rain and let the rain fill it back up.

    Another thing, the pool store may be easier but it's also much more expensive. Once you have everything leveled out you'll only be adding a few oz. of bleach every day.

    And that Chlorine/CYA chart, that's a little piece of gold right there! Use it to keep the FC above the recommended minimum for the level of CYA that you have and you'll never have algae and never have to "shock" the pool.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    You guys and gals are great! Thanks, thanks, thanks.

    Yes, the dilution test was 50 ish so double takes me back to 100, .
    Reading CYA I am learning is a bit more art than science w this kit or at least equal art and science. Is there a truly accurate CYA reader?

    Bama Rambler wrote, "I'll just add, being in Fla. I wouldn't take the CYA all the way to 40 ppm, I'd drain just enough to get to about 60 ppm and start there". Why only to 60?
    Somewhat less confused,
    Al
    Last edited by alzan001; 01-06-2016 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Didnt want to not give credit to MarianParoo. I assume a lady?
    6k gal IG plaster diamond brite, resurfaced 2011, cartridge filter, Hayward Pump, Big White Cleaner, Chlorinator (not using), former Pill Addict (TriChlor), Taylor k-2006 Test Kit [Pool Dim.(s) are: 12’ W x 17’ L x 4’ Deep (Avg.) = 816 Sq. Ft. = 6,104 Gal.(s). Filter: Hayward Star Clear C1000 (100 Sq. Ft.) Frabric,(Cartridge type)].

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    CYA 60 due to FL heat.

    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
    2 Speed Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 85 g.p.m. 22" 250lb. sand filter hard plumbed
    Pool Rover Jr., Pool Blaster Max, Diver Dave TF100 Test Kit/Speed Stir
    Margaritaville Frozen Concoction Maker, Liqour Chiller, & Drink Mixer & Party Tub----Collect 'um all!

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    FL, CA, TX=HOT and need more CYA (sunscreen) for the FC (Free Chlorine) than up the North Pole.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    For all intent that is a "truly accurate" CYA tester. As long as you test under the same conditions; in sunlight, but not direct sunlight, hold tube at waist height, etc. your testing will become consistent and accurate for the purposes of selecting FC level. Believe me, I understand the preference to get a number or see a distinct color change but you'll get used to it. I do prefer the 'peek a boo' method as I call it: basically you look at the tube and fill it up a little, look away then back again. If you see the dot add more sample then look away and then back. Repeat until dot is gone or you really have to strain to see it. I do this rather than staring at the tube for the entire fill. To me this make subtle changes more obvious. Also. the CYA test is the only repeatable test with same reagent/sample. I generally fill the tube three times, reusing the same sample, then average the results.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Help Me. Save me from Your sophmoric new member!!

    The sun in Fla. (and South Al. for that matter) burns off a lot of FC so having the CYA a little higher than normal isn't a problem. I run mine between 50 and 60 ppm here. You have to keep the FC a little higher, but you actually lose per day due to the higher CYA. There is a point of diminishing returns, so you don't want t too high, but 60 isn't bad.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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