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Thread: Why so much muriatic acid?

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    Why so much muriatic acid?

    i just joined Trouble Free Pool, but i've read threads in this forum for a while.

    my pool was finished fall of this year in dallas-ft worth metroplex. My issue: i am constantly having to lower the pH and then eventually having to raise the alkalinity.
    my current chemistry as of this morning using Taylor K-2006 test kit is FC 4.6, CC zero, pH 7.7, alkalinity 80 (before CYA correction), calcium hardness 200, CYA 30, phosphates zero (i checked it last week with AquaChek phosphate test (and i have been adding Leslie's Phos Free commercial strength to lower this), TDS 600. current outdoor temp 45 degrees, and pool temp 51 degrees. pool is checked three times a week.

    i also add polyquat 60 algae control weekly, Leslie's Scale Free monthly, and Leslie's Pool Perfect weekly. Trichlor tabs in my chlorine feeder. the feeder includes Nature2 fusion "mineral technology".

    i added 7 cups of muriatic acid this morning after checking the chemicals. i would like to get the pH to hover around 7.4. i to put a lot of acid into the pool but can't seem to get the pH below 7.7; the most muriatic acid i have put in at one time is 7 cups.

    any ideas are appreciated. thanks

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Welcome to the forum!

    You don't need all that extra stuff from Leslie's. Especially the scale free at your low levels of CH. Honestly, you can do with out the phosphate remover, the nature 2, and the polyquat. We have many, many users in the DFW area, across Texas, and from many other places that have perfect pools without any of these products in use. Myself included, I have 4-5 times the CH you do, and I don't scale because I manage my pH and TA very carefully.

    Your acid demand is mostly a function of your TA level, but what you mention isn't excessive in a new pool. In time, Your TA should level out, and not need any manipulation from adding any. With your low CH, you can easily run the pH a little higher into the 7.6-7.7 range. You might find it stabilizes in that area and require minimal acid addition. The more you push it down, the more it will bounce back, and it's often easier not to try and push it lower all the time. Sometimes, it will find a place it likes to be, and require little or minimal effort to control.
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Welcome to TFP!

    The pH will not be stable for quite some time as the plaster is new and that is causing the pH to rise. Keep adding acid once the pH gets to 7.8 and target 7.5 at the lowest for now.

    Test to see how long the pH will stay at 7.8, check everyday to get an idea. The rate of rise should be slower at the higher end and you should not have to add as much acid to keep it there.
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    Divin Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    ^^^ what they said ^^^

    If you would take a little time and read the abcs of pool chemistry, and give the TFP method a try, you will save lots and lots of $$$$$ in not having to add all that stuff that leslies is selling you.

    Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry
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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Marcion,

    The first thing you can do is.. Raise your hands and back slowly away from the pool store!!!

    The second thing you can do is follow the advice given above.

    The third thing is to read this ..http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...tal-alkalinity

    My guess is that you are using acid to lower the PH and then using some other Leslie's product to increase your alkalinity. Kind of like riding a Merry-Go-Round.. Try following the above link instead.

    Just like you, I used to think if I lowered by PH to 7.1 it would take longer to drift to 7.9, which would allow me to add acid less often. I'm sure it is not technically correct, but I think of it like a rubber band, the harder you pull the PH away from where it wants to be, the more pressure there is for the PH to return to its state of rest. In my case, I followed the above link, very closely, and my PH stays between 7.6 and 7.8 for extended periods of time. I went from adding acid a couple of times a week, or more, to only adding acid once every eight weeks or so.

    Jim R.
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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Welcome to TFP
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    thanks to all of you for your help. would i have really found this info on new pool and pH in pool school? i haven't found it so far.

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Welcome to TFP!!

    Yes, it is actually all in Pool School, but maybe not set up to answer your question directly as asked. Keep reading and feel free to ask questions.

    One of basic TFPC tenets - Pool Stores can and will sell you most anything....whether it helps or hurts your pool.....they just don't know any better. From your list of things you are putting in your pool I can see they have their hand deep in your pocket. The two things your pool will need continually is chlorine and acid. As others have pointed out, you have a new pool and the curing plaster causes pH to rise, it's basic science. If you have anything that causes aeration (stirring up the water) like a waterfall that just adds to the pH rise.

    But, I will caution you - do not try to mix the advice being given at the pool store with our advice. They are not compatible. My suggestion is to just stop going there. You usually don't need anything they are selling.

    I will also caution you that the chlorine puck feeder will eventually get you in trouble. About half of each tab you put in the feeder is CYA/Stabilizer and continued use of tabs will drive your CYA through the roof. While your CYA is low now is the time to start thinking about how you will transition to liquid chlorine products only.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Yes, it is all there in Poolschool. But, forums are great for questions also. Dave's links will get you headed in the right direction. I only had to read it 30 or 40 times for it to start sinking in!
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Welcome to TFP!!

    Yes, it is actually all in Pool School, but maybe not set up to answer your question directly as asked. Keep reading and feel free to ask questions.

    One of basic TFPC tenets - Pool Stores can and will sell you most anything....whether it helps or hurts your pool.....they just don't know any better. From your list of things you are putting in your pool I can see they have their hand deep in your pocket. The two things your pool will need continually is chlorine and acid. As others have pointed out, you have a new pool and the curing plaster causes pH to rise, it's basic science. If you have anything that causes aeration (stirring up the water) like a waterfall that just adds to the pH rise.

    But, I will caution you - do not try to mix the advice being given at the pool store with our advice. They are not compatible. My suggestion is to just stop going there. You usually don't need anything they are selling.

    I will also caution you that the chlorine puck feeder will eventually get you in trouble. About half of each tab you put in the feeder is CYA/Stabilizer and continued use of tabs will drive your CYA through the roof. While your CYA is low now is the time to start thinking about how you will transition to liquid chlorine products only.
    i've heard of liquid chlorine use for shocking but not maintaining chlorine levels with it. is this done by daily chlorine level testing and then daily doses of liquid chlorine if needed? this seems like a lot of testing and chlorinating.

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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Yes, daily, at least until you really get to know your pool. It takes me maybe 5 minutes tops. Total. The cost benefit is significant.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    It really does only take minutes. And beats the heck out of buying hundreds of dollars of chemicals from the pool store to fix their mistakes. Once you get to know your pool and chlorine usage you don't have to test daily or even add daily, especially during the week when it is used less. You can add a couple of days worth at a time. And definitely not daily in winter, I test and add weekly-ish.

    You can get a pump to add bleach or an SWG to make chlorine. Then you can usually get away with testing weekly and adjusting the dosage to the current conditions.

    Here is the page discussing various options, Pool School - How to Chlorinate Your Pool
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion333 View Post
    i've heard of liquid chlorine use for shocking but not maintaining chlorine levels with it. is this done by daily chlorine level testing and then daily doses of liquid chlorine if needed? this seems like a lot of testing and chlorinating.
    This is another "teaching" of pool stores, the weekly shock. You do not need to shock your pool. If you keep your chlorine level correct all the time you do not need to shock.

    As,others have pointed out, yes, you have to add chlorine regularly. I generally tell folks they need to test every day for a few weeks to learn their pool. In that time they will get a good feeling for what it wants each day. After that you add chlorine every day, testing every two or three days.

    The pool store "system" of using pucks and shocking once a week is easy - easy for them to move money from your bank account to theirs. The CYA in the pucks is the worst part they don't tell you about. As it slowly builds up in your pool it reduces the chlorine's ability to do its job, meaning you need higher & higher levels of chlorine to fight off the bad stuff. The problem is, they say all you ever need is about 4 ppm of chlorine. Eventually stuff starts to grow in the water and they start selling you other stuff. The final step is them telling you you have "chlorine lock" and you need to drain your pool. To use your pool as an example, every 8oz Trichlor puck you put in the pool raises your CYA by 2.6. It doesnt sound like much, but magnify that over a pool season or year. They generally sell you a bucket of them because "you need a bunch of them". So, just using 10 pucks added 26 to your CYA. Now, add that 26 to your existing CYA 30 and you are close to 60. Now, look at the Chlorine / CYA Chart and see the difference in where you need to keep your chlorine level between 30 and 60.

    The basic TFPC tenet is accurate testing and only add to your pool products that you KNOW what they will do and that your pool really needs. You are ahead of the game in that you have one of the best pool care test kits, a Taylor K-2006C

    How much Pool School have you read? Start with these:
    ABCs of Water Chemistry
    Recommended Pool Chemicals
    How to Chlorinate Your Pool

    Go in the pool store and this is what you get:

    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule

    This link might help you also. When I first started with my pool I printed it out and had it by my test kit.

    YOUR pool will find it's sweet spot with PH and TA after the plaster is done curing. We will help you find the best balance for your pool.

    Kim
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    This is another "teaching" of pool stores, the weekly shock. You do not need to shock your pool. If you keep your chlorine level correct all the time you do not need to shock.

    As,others have pointed out, yes, you have to add chlorine regularly. I generally tell folks they need to test every day for a few weeks to learn their pool. In that time they will get a good feeling for what it wants each day. After that you add chlorine every day, testing every two or three days.

    The pool store "system" of using pucks and shocking once a week is easy - easy for them to move money from your bank account to theirs. The CYA in the pucks is the worst part they don't tell you about. As it slowly builds up in your pool it reduces the chlorine's ability to do its job, meaning you need higher & higher levels of chlorine to fight off the bad stuff. The problem is, they say all you ever need is about 4 ppm of chlorine. Eventually stuff starts to grow in the water and they start selling you other stuff. The final step is them telling you you have "chlorine lock" and you need to drain your pool. To use your pool as an example, every 8oz Trichlor puck you put in the pool raises your CYA by 2.6. It doesnt sound like much, but magnify that over a pool season or year. They generally sell you a bucket of them because "you need a bunch of them". So, just using 10 pucks added 26 to your CYA. Now, add that 26 to your existing CYA 30 and you are close to 60. Now, look at the Chlorine / CYA Chart and see the difference in where you need to keep your chlorine level between 30 and 60.

    The basic TFPC tenet is accurate testing and only add to your pool products that you KNOW what they will do and that your pool really needs. You are ahead of the game in that you have one of the best pool care test kits, a Taylor K-2006C

    How much Pool School have you read? Start with these:
    ABCs of Water Chemistry
    Recommended Pool Chemicals
    How to Chlorinate Your Pool

    Go in the pool store and this is what you get:

    why don't pool chemical companies make a chlorine puck without CYA???

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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Because it isn't possible. Chlorine is a gas at temperatures we deal with and that's why its either combined with CYA (Trichlor pucks) or salt (liquid Chlorine).
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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion333 View Post
    why don't pool chemical companies make a chlorine puck without CYA???
    Because of this crazy thing called science. In it's natural state chlorine is a gas. It needs to be attached/stabilized by something to get it into any other form. CYA is the most common, but they also bind it to calcium, lithium and the liquid solution uses water, salt and some lye.....
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Because of this crazy thing called science. In it's natural state chlorine is a gas. It needs to be attached/stabilized by something to get it into any other form. CYA is the most common, but they also bind it to calcium, lithium and the liquid solution uses water, salt and some lye.....
    residential leslies store and commercial leslies store don't carry liquid chlorine. where can this be bought in the arlington tx area?
    and is there such a thing as a liquid chlorine feeder?

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Chlorine sources Home Depot, Lowes, Wall Mart, Your local grocery store -- just buy plain (unscented) bleach. Somewhere on here there is a whole thread on liquid chlorine prices with sources.

    There are feeders. Passive -- the Liquidator and active --a Stenner pumps. We have a whole sub forum on them!!
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Why so much muriatic acid?

    Lowes definitely has liquid chlorine, 10%, in the pool section near the garden are usually. Target and Academy have it during swim season, not sure about winter. I usually buy Kroger store brand concentrated bleach, 8.25%. Unscented and not splashless or easy pour.
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