Pump Replacement

[Uncle Flappy]

Next on the list for pool upgrades is a possible pump replacement. The model I have is a decade old and starting to get noisy. Here is a photo of the motor:

Cost of electricity in my neck of the woods averages ~$0.13 kW/hr. In looking at the label and counting on fingers and toes, runtime of the pump costs about $0.15 per hour. A couple questions:

1. I am having a difficult time finding a like for like replacement. Current models are not a direct match. Is there a comparable motor so that I need not replace the whole pump?
2. The current motor is 1/2 HP. Is that sized appropriately for a 16.5k gallon pool?
3. If my math is right, my current model appears to be somewhat energy efficient compared to other single speed motors. Is it worth looking at two/variable speed motors?​

a) SWCG is new and I want to keep using it
b) Although the in-floor cleaner (pop-ups) don't add much value, I would like to use them to stir up the water once and a while.

​

Thanks for your feedback.

- Flappy

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You would benefit a lot from a two speed. The return on investment for a new 2-speed pump will take a while but if you did just a motor replacement, then the ROI would be quicker.

Question - do you have the correct wiring at the equipment pad for a 2-speed pump?

I'm a variable speed pump owner (IntelliFlo) and I LOVE IT!!! In your situation, you'll probably never get a ROI buying a new IntelliFlo but, considering all the awesome upgrades you have made to your pool this year, it certainly deserves one VS pumps are great especially if you can pair them with an automation system because there's nothing better than knowing you can change speeds and energy use with the simple touch of a button. Considering you have in-floors, having the ability to kick it up to high-speed for a period of time to run in-floors and then jump back down to a super-low speed just for skimming is really a nice flexibility to have.

So I guess my opinion is no surprise to you - do you want the Weber charcoal grille (2-speed motor) or do you want the Pitt's & Spitt's Ultimate Smoker (IntelliFlo) ?

 

[Uncle Flappy]

Ha! I like the way you think. Which motor comes with bacon?

Wiring shouldn't be a problem, it is more the know-how. With guidance from you and other TFP'ers, I'll figure it out. The outdoor breaker box is only 20' away; 220v is already there. I was surprised to see only 120v sticker on the pump but I digress...

I am big on automation but don't want to forklift my current system. I have and older Jandy (RS-6 8157K). I was thrilled to get the SWCG online. Are any of these new fangled pumps compatible?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

This post might interest you as it talks about hooking an IntelliFlo VS up to your Jandy automation panel.

I think it's entirely possible to do but you might want to contact Jandy to see what your options are. Obviously they'd probably like to sell you one of their pumps but you can always ask what else is compatible. You could also call Pentair and Hayward to see what they say. Might require the intestinal fortitude to suffer through a sales pitch, but it could be helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[Uncle Flappy]

Let me spin it a different way. What would the VS pump automation bring? I don't have actuators on the floor cleaning/wall return valves so to engage them is already a manual process. Couldn't I just kick the pump in high gear manually for the rare occasion I want to use the pop-ups? Long as the SWCG is happy it's all gravy. My go-to floor cleaner is the robot.

My panel currently controls the pool pump on/off, spa jet/return valves, water feature pump, heater, and fiber optics for the pool, spa, and water feature.

 

[banditig]

Why does everyone worried about returning investment? If you can have a vs pump you can find your sweet spot.

 

[duraleigh]

My cold, hard heart ALWAYS looks at the benefits that come to me by spending money. You cannot get an ROI on most things but you can educate yourself and buy smart.

VS pumps are wildly popular and I believe they dominate the new pool market. I think the 2-speed option is often overlooked as a significant money saver.

While the VS gives you limitless options, my take is you end up running one on essentially two speeds - low speed for general filtering and high speed for backwash, fountains, vacuuming, etc. Unless your needs are more complex, it strikes me a 2-speed will do the same thing.

I don't want to hi-jack, but I think OP's situation may be just right for a 1 HP 2 speed that will actually pay him back in energy sayings.

 

[Uncle Flappy]

There are some good points here. For general filtering I'll need a flow rate high enough to keep the SWCG happy. On rare occasion, it would need to move more water for the in-floor cleaning or the propane heater. The water feature has a separate pump so that isn't a problem.

I'd prefer a pump model compatible with my automation system. If I were to upgrade its firmware, I'd lose integration with the SWCG.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Let me spin it a different way. What would the VS pump automation bring? I don't have actuators on the floor cleaning/wall return valves so to engage them is already a manual process. Couldn't I just kick the pump in high gear manually for the rare occasion I want to use the pop-ups? Long as the SWCG is happy it's all gravy. My go-to floor cleaner is the robot.

My panel currently controls the pool pump on/off, spa jet/return valves, water feature pump, and fiber optics for pool, spa, and water feature.

A lot of this depends on the current plumbing configuration you have (simple PVC ball valves or Jandy-style valves?) and what capabilities your current automation panel has. It sounds like your automation panel is old enough that fiddling around with it too much will just create a lot of unnecessary work. I did not realize you were mostly ignoring your in-floor cleaning system and, instead, using a robotic clean; that definitely changes the equation. For me, it's much easier to consider features like VS pumps because I have a full automation panel with a remote; I can program/re-program and activate anything I want from my kitchen table. If you add an expensive VS pump and still have to walk out to the equipment pad to use it, well, then, I'm not sure where your value-add is.

I happen to agree with duraleigh on this one. Either a motor exchange for a 2-speed or a new 2-speed pump is probably your quickest, simplest and cheapest option and will get you 99% of what you want and need. A variable speed pump is a fun thing to have but would likely add only a small incremental value for a much larger increase in cost.

Whatever you decide to do, there's plenty of people here ready to help answer your replacement/installation questions.

By the way, if you do rebuild it with a 2-speed motor, do you also plan to rebuild the wet-end seals and change out the impeller? I am NOT a pump expert so you may want to wait for proper advice on the how's and what's you need to do to exchange a motor as there could be other requirements that simply just swapping in a new motor.

 

[Uncle Flappy]

I have an older automation system that was installed with the pool in 2003. It has a temperature probe and turns on/off the propane heater; interfaces with the SWCG and controls the run time (output %); is connected to two Jandy actuator valves for Spa Mode (jets on, drain on, wall return/spillway off); and uses relays for the filter pump, water feature pump, and fiber optic lighting. Manual Jandy valves are for the in-floor cleaning and wall return. There are two hard-wired control panels - one at the spa and the other in the master bedroom. While I would like to get a replacement system, this one suits our needs. I have a hard time justifying the hefty price tag for something network capable.

To your point about the seals. The pump is old and probably due for a rebuild should the motor be replaced. I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze so a full pump replacement might just be the best way to go.

Now for another question. In looking at two-speed motors, I see the amperage rating for full load but not low speed. Is the rule of thumb that the lower speed is 50% of the RPM but 75% less power? I would like to calculate the savings for my CFO (wife). Also, can I be sure that the lower RPMs will be enough water flow to keep the SWCG happy?

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[bobodaclown]

The wet end doesn't really wear out, but the motor will. People think they have to replace the whole pump when they really need to just replace the motor and seals. Then if you'd like to get more efficient look at replacing only the motor. Where energy/electricity is less expensive less than $.20 KWH a two-speed motor is a better value, cost outlay pays back back quicker than a variable speed motor.
Depending on the automation it may just need a 2-speed relay.

 

[Uncle Flappy]

Boy did I make a big error - the photo/data in my first post is of the water feature pump. The filter pump is actually an ST1152:

	HP	SF	TBH	Run Time	Voltage	Amps	kW	RPM	Cost/Day	Cost/Mo	Cost/Yr
ST1152	1.5	1.5	2.25	8	230	10.4	2.392	3450	$ 2.56	$ 76.93	$ 935.94

 

[Uncle Flappy]

It may be overkill but I decided to go ahead and spring for the Itelliflow VS. I recently made a significant investment in re-plastering the pool and would be remiss if I didn't also give the equipment some TLC.
Referencing Chem Geek's energy consumption posted in this thread here, I should have a significant ROI. I calculated estimated run time as the hours needed to match the current pump utilization of 8 hours @ 3450 RPM.

Current Pump ST1152	1.5	1.5	2.25	8.0	2.392	3450	$ 2.56	$ 76.93	$ 935.94	$ -
Model	HP	SF	TBH	Est. Run Time (hrs)	kW	RPM	Cost/Day	Cost/Mo	Cost/Yr	Annual Savings
Pentair Intelliflow 011018	3	1.32	3.96	23.3	0.155	1185	$ 0.48	$ 14.51	$ 176.57	$ 759.37
				20.8	0.195	1325	$ 0.54	$ 16.33	$ 198.67	$ 737.27
				18.9	0.255	1460	$ 0.65	$ 19.38	$ 235.77	$ 700.17
				15.3	0.42	1805	$ 0.86	$ 25.82	$ 314.11	$ 621.83
				14.0	0.535	1975	$ 1.00	$ 30.06	$ 365.67	$ 570.27
				12.8	0.685	2160	$ 1.17	$ 35.19	$ 428.10	$ 507.84
				11.9	0.835	2310	$ 1.34	$ 40.11	$ 487.96	$ 447.99
				11.1	1.03	2490	$ 1.53	$ 45.90	$ 558.40	$ 377.54
				10.2	1.305	2710	$ 1.78	$ 53.43	$ 650.05	$ 285.89
				9.5	1.59	2900	$ 2.03	$ 60.83	$ 740.13	$ 195.82
				9.0	1.895	3080	$ 2.28	$ 68.26	$ 830.55	$ 105.39
				8.2	2.495	3360	$ 2.75	$ 82.39	$ 1,002.39	$ (66.45)

 

[thepoolman]

Zodiac part number IQ20-RS would get you Intelliflo integration and network connectivity for around $500. That would be next on my list.

 

[Uncle Flappy]

Zodiac part number IQ20-RS would get you Intelliflo integration and network connectivity for around $500. That would be next on my list.

Yes sir, that is already on the way and will be delivered tomorrow. Thank you for making the time to reply.

 

[pooldv]

I love my Intelliflo pump. We run it at 1100 rpm for skimming, filtering and making chlorine with the SWG. It uses 150 watts and costs us 12 bucks a month to run it 24x7. We have lots of trees so keeping debris skimmed and off the bottom helps a lot. At 1950 rpm we run solar panels and it uses about 550 watts. It is virtually silent at the pool at all speeds under 2000 or 2500 rpm. I never need to run it above 2500 rpm.

 

[bobodaclown]

When using solar it's best to run at high speed.
Some general reading:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/davis2/docs/28038.pdf

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Hey Flappy,

Glad to see you're always listening to my excellent advice :slidehalo:

Perhaps with the IntelliFlo you might actually get your in-floor cleaners working again?? That's a very nice pump you're installing at your equipment pad, good luck with it as I'm sure you're going to love it!!

 

[Uncle Flappy]

Hey Flappy,

Glad to see you're always listening to my excellent advice :slidehalo:

Perhaps with the IntelliFlo you might actually get your in-floor cleaners working again?? That's a very nice pump you're installing at your equipment pad, good luck with it as I'm sure you're going to love it!!

Howdy JN! In addition to your endorsement, there were a few things that steered me toward the Intelliflo:

• My current pump is starting to whine and it is getting worse by the day
• I made a significant investment in the plaster and deck. It would be an injustice to skimp on the equipment
• While I could have gone with a cheaper model, fuzzy math shows that the IntelliFlo will pay for itself in 14-18 months. Might as well get the Cadillac.

Funny you mention the in-floor cleaning. It works but the valves are manual. I've been contemplating buying two actuators so that I could add floor cleaning to the daily program.

The new PCB and WiFi connection are due from UPS today. I'm working out of my home office in the hopes I can find some time to install it and play.

JN, can you recommend an installer for the pump? I can and may do it myself but doing so would likely void the 3-year warranty. If I can get a good rate, I'll consider professional installation.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I'm PM'ed you some info.