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Thread: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendations?

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    RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendations?

    I have a quick question. We bought a raypak 407a a few years ago, and it's been great! But we haven't been able to get it to start. I think it might be a simple fix, but am unsure of who to ask as there aren't any service techs near us.

    When we start the heater, it says 'Spark', then, eventually faults to 'No Pilot Sensed'. 'Ignition Failure'.

    What worried me is that I also saw that a red housing was sparking alongside our heater (burnt a hole through it), each time the spark tried to ignite.

    When we moved the tubing away from the heater to see if it was shorting, the red tube didn't light up against our heater!... But we still had the same issue.

    We have been trying to get this working for months, but are unsure of which documentation to follow to try and get it working again. Is this just a simple clean?

    What happens:
    -We turn the heater on
    -It starts up, the display says Off
    -We hit spa or pool temperature, maybe 2 or 3 clicks from different parts of the heater
    -It says Spark, and we hear 3 even clicks, with about 2 second break, then it repeats forever
    -Eventually it says No Pilot Sensed, Ignition Failure. It still clicks
    -No flame is seen, we always hear clicks, gas is on we believe bc it's an extremely faint smell when we cycle gas off to on to test.

    Thank you! (I attached a picture below of the spark.)

    Our Fault List (Most Recent to Furthest)
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -Water SW Open
    -Water SW Open
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -Water SW Open
    -No Pilot Sensed
    -Water SW Open

    IMG_20151209_212252.jpg
    IMG_20151209_214759.jpg

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    You need to verify you have gas going into the unit. Is this natural or propane? As for the sparking of the red tube, can you see a hole in it?
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Thank you for your thoughts!

    Ours is a natural gas line. Both valves are cuttently open to the heater. I think I smell a faint gas when I get close to the honeywell, but am not sure. There wouldn't be a way to hear it after closing and opening the gas valve right?

    And there IS a small hole in that red tube. But when I moved the tube away from the chasis, it didn't spark, but it also didn't solve the issue.

    On this model, the spark is made behind the control panel, correct?

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    When the unit sparks, a small portion of the gas valve is opened to light the pilot. Once the pilot lights, it then sends a signal to the gas valve to open completely.

    What you can try, be careful doing this, get a BBQ lighter, turn heater on, as it is sparking, light the lighter and put it down where the pilot is. If the pilot lights then it should go thru the rest of the process to light up. If the pilot does not light, there is probably a supply issue. Could be the gas valve or the supply itself.

    Please be careful following my directions.
    Paul
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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Do you have a picture of the red "hose" and where it starts/ends?

    Paul is by far your biggest asset on the site and he has the knowledge to help you out...even with that avatar. Been a rough second half, but go Pack. And yes, i don't remember thanksgiving.
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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    When you talked about the red line is it the one in the first picture going through the clip holding it down and if so are we seeing the spark grounding out to the case in the picture? My guess (and it sound like Paul can confirm since he is in the industry) is that's your igniter line. It must have gotten a small nick in the insulation. you don't want it to allow it to spark against the case, since that is robing it of the ability to light the pilot. May not be the only issue but certainly not helping. If bending it away from the case stopped the arcing you are probably good but you might want to put some silicone or liquid electrical tape over the whole and use something nonconductive like zip ties to keep the weak spot away from the case. As far as service techs go and again sounds like Paul can confirm if you can't find a factory authorized repair company an HVAC or appliance repair company capable of working on gas dryers might do the trick.
    12,300 Gallon, IG PebbleFina, 3 ft sheer, 2 Jandy nicheless LED lights, Jandy Pro 1.5HP VS pump (A.O. Smith Motor), PB4-60 Booster pump, Polaris 280, Jandy cv340 cartridge filter, Zodiac Z4 control panel W/iAquaLink, Stenner pumps for chlorine & MA connected to WiOn WiFi switches, TF-100. You can support TFP with AmazonSmile just click the link!

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Quote Originally Posted by atttech-2 View Post
    When you talked about the red line is it the one in the first picture going through the clip holding it down and if so are we seeing the spark grounding out to the case in the picture? My guess (and it sound like Paul can confirm since he is in the industry) is that's your igniter line. It must have gotten a small nick in the insulation. you don't want it to allow it to spark against the case, since that is robing it of the ability to light the pilot. May not be the only issue but certainly not helping. If bending it away from the case stopped the arcing you are probably good but you might want to put some silicone or liquid electrical tape over the whole and use something nonconductive like zip ties to keep the weak spot away from the case. As far as service techs go and again sounds like Paul can confirm if you can't find a factory authorized repair company an HVAC or appliance repair company capable of working on gas dryers might do the trick.
    Thank you!!!! That was it.

    It works now, but I noticed that I can't read the LCD display when its on. Something to do with moisture/heat? Is this common/okay to leave? When it turns off for a while, it works fine. But when its back on/hot in the room, it can't be read.

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    LCDs do not like heat if it is going black like every pixel is lit it is getting hot. Not sure if that is normal for your unit but I would call the manufacture and ask.

    You said "hot in the room" is it totally enclosed and if so is there a fresh airs supply and an exhaust duct? If it is getting uncomfortably hot in the room you should ask Paul, not sure what the requirement are for ducting and venting but I wold bet if it is too hot to be in the room something is not right.
    12,300 Gallon, IG PebbleFina, 3 ft sheer, 2 Jandy nicheless LED lights, Jandy Pro 1.5HP VS pump (A.O. Smith Motor), PB4-60 Booster pump, Polaris 280, Jandy cv340 cartridge filter, Zodiac Z4 control panel W/iAquaLink, Stenner pumps for chlorine & MA connected to WiOn WiFi switches, TF-100. You can support TFP with AmazonSmile just click the link!

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Quote Originally Posted by atttech-2 View Post
    LCDs do not like heat if it is going black like every pixel is lit it is getting hot. Not sure if that is normal for your unit but I would call the manufacture and ask.

    You said "hot in the room" is it totally enclosed and if so is there a fresh airs supply and an exhaust duct? If it is getting uncomfortably hot in the room you should ask Paul, not sure what the requirement are for ducting and venting but I wold bet if it is too hot to be in the room something is not right.
    Yeah, I think something may be up as well.

    After fixing the wire with a temporary measure, it started right up instantly. Then it reached about 80 degrees and the LCD started getting hard to read. Once it reached 90 degrees, it shut off and said Hi Limit 2. I turned it off for an hour or so, started it again, and it shut off eventually saying hi limit again.

    The next day, I tried starting it again, and it turned on for about 5 seconds, then shut off. Eventually, it doesn't even ignite anymore. I'm thinking my hi tension wire I fixed may need a total replacement ($60).

    But even if I fix the wire and that fixes the pilot, I'm afraid it will just hi limit 2 again.

    When it started working the first time, it took forever to heat up. After 5 hours of an initial 65 degree water temperature, it couldn't go higher than 90 degrees until eventually hi limiting.

    The room (when its working), is really humid. Although hot, not scorching hot. But most notibly. It's really humid/moisturized. I think that's why the LCD is hard to read when it is. But the 407A does have an exhaust duct as well.

    It ran fine for an entire year when it was first built. It is slightly vented as well on one side of the room.

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Reading the manual, says the raypak requires a low vent, a high vent, an a exhaust. Speaking to a pool shop recently, they were adamant about venting the pool shed.
    Inground Gunite/Plaster pool with spa. Estimated 31,000 gallons.

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemolis View Post
    Reading the manual, says the raypak requires a low vent, a high vent, an a exhaust. Speaking to a pool shop recently, they were adamant about venting the pool shed.
    Probably best to start a new thread on this issue. But yes, any heating unit where you have flu gases should be vented properly to the outside. Plus you need to make sure you have adequate fresh air flow in as well so the unit will burn properly.
    Paul
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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    High humidity sounds like a blocked or restricted flu vent could be a birds nest or stuck anti backdraft damper. I would take the flu vent apart and see if you can see all the way to the roof or where ever it ends. If it has a backdraft damper it should move very easily when touched it should only be healed closed with gravity or a down draft from the roof.
    12,300 Gallon, IG PebbleFina, 3 ft sheer, 2 Jandy nicheless LED lights, Jandy Pro 1.5HP VS pump (A.O. Smith Motor), PB4-60 Booster pump, Polaris 280, Jandy cv340 cartridge filter, Zodiac Z4 control panel W/iAquaLink, Stenner pumps for chlorine & MA connected to WiOn WiFi switches, TF-100. You can support TFP with AmazonSmile just click the link!

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    High humidity in the room is probably from the condensate on the exchanger evaporating off, into the room. Perhaps even a small pinhole leak in the exchanger. If the unit worked for the first year, i would suspect sooting of the exchanger and all the gasses backing up into the room causing the heat. If it had done this from day one, i would suspect improper venting, but you said things were fine last year?

    High tension wire (red tube) should be replaced if it is arcing to the jacket. Should be replaced, wouldn't recommend repairing. Because when it does that, it is usually because it has heat cracked and will do so in other locations eventually. Cant stress that enough due to the fact that the high tension wire is the delivery conduit for ignition, and you don't want an ignition source anywhere but at the intended location for obvious reasons. Sooting can happen for a couple of reasons. In your case (low NOx) it can be from one or more of the following: Not enough combustion air, not enough makeup air, or incorrect gas pressure. Sooting is a process that takes time. IOW it wont happen in a couple of weeks. Depending on bad the conditions are can take anywhere from a couple of months to a perhaps an entire season. I would have the high tension wire replaced, and have the tech check the exchanger at the same time.

    Note: With a low NOx heater it is kinda tricky to really check this without taking the heater apart (unfortunately), but can be done if your tech is on the ball. So i would be suspect if your tech reported that "its ok" if it only took him a couple of min to check. Having said that i would make him show you personally that the exchanger is clear, or not. Weather he takes the heater apart or not.
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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Quote Originally Posted by Pool Clown View Post
    High humidity in the room is probably from the condensate on the exchanger evaporating off, into the room. Perhaps even a small pinhole leak in the exchanger. If the unit worked for the first year, i would suspect sooting of the exchanger and all the gasses backing up into the room causing the heat. If it had done this from day one, i would suspect improper venting, but you said things were fine last year?

    High tension wire (red tube) should be replaced if it is arcing to the jacket. Should be replaced, wouldn't recommend repairing. Because when it does that, it is usually because it has heat cracked and will do so in other locations eventually. Cant stress that enough due to the fact that the high tension wire is the delivery conduit for ignition, and you don't want an ignition source anywhere but at the intended location for obvious reasons. Sooting can happen for a couple of reasons. In your case (low NOx) it can be from one or more of the following: Not enough combustion air, not enough makeup air, or incorrect gas pressure. Sooting is a process that takes time. IOW it wont happen in a couple of weeks. Depending on bad the conditions are can take anywhere from a couple of months to a perhaps an entire season. I would have the high tension wire replaced, and have the tech check the exchanger at the same time.

    Note: With a low NOx heater it is kinda tricky to really check this without taking the heater apart (unfortunately), but can be done if your tech is on the ball. So i would be suspect if your tech reported that "its ok" if it only took him a couple of min to check. Having said that i would make him show you personally that the exchanger is clear, or not. Weather he takes the heater apart or not.
    I took your advice and I replaced the tension wire. That fixed my short! But I am still getting a high limit 2 error. I also opened up the room so that it stays cool just in case heat and humidity was the issue.

    Also, my unit doesn't fire instantly up. It sparks and then lights itself randomly on an attempt. But I think this issue is separate from my hi limit 2 issue.

    Most likely cause not enough water pressure getting to my heater? I took a picture of my setup below. There's a 3 way valve before the IN to my heater that is turned 45 degrees. Could this be the issue? My spa is 7500 gallons and my filter before my spa says the filter pressure is at 22. The Jandy black valve after the filter, before the heater Is turned 45 degrees. Should this be like this?

    The hi limit happened after i fixed the wire when it heateed from 52 degrees and got to 71 degrees.

    My setup:

    http://i.imgur.com/f1IZt1K.jpg

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    Ok. that Jandy valve that was in my picture, I moved it from 45 degrees to almost fully closed (Off side that was at 45 before is pointing towards the out of the heater. Barely fully turned. Didn't want to turn all the way).

    The pressure on my filter PSI went from 22 to 28 and my heater has currently been on for 6 hours without hi-limiting. It seems to be heating slower than it did before, but it hasn't ran this long before. The display is working fine and the room is also less moist. It is currently at 89 degrees (Started at 53).

    Any thoughts on what I did? Was the valve wrong from the start? Correction make sense? Should it take this long to heat?

    Coming Closer! Thanks so much guys!

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    The valve, bypass, was open thus bypassing too much water past the heater and can cause numerous issues especially taking a long time to heat. I would close that valve all the way and force all the water thru the heater. The only time I would open it some is if you get condensation or rattling due to so much water going thru it. You're more likely to get the condensation issue other the rattling. As for the heating time, depending on what you are heating, pool or spa, and the amount of water, you should get about 2 degrees per hour on heating a pool. Obviously much faster for just a spa.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: RayPak 407A - No Pilot Sensed - Spark Seen alongside heater chasis - Recommendati

    My manual says to feel the pipes and the output needs warmer but not hot. I play around with the bypass valve but if I close it there is a internal valve in the heater that opens. That is another reason I just purchased a variable speed pump
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