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Thread: Just in time chlorinatation

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    Lightbulb Just in time chlorinatation

    Hi

    Firstly I would just like to say what a great forum this is. The BBB method has helped me go from a green pool to a crystal clear one. Unfortunately the pool may only get used a handful of times so rather than running the pump all the time and adding chlorine I'd prefer to do it a day or so before use. I am using a copper based algaecide and according to their instructions I can just chlorinate the pool prior to use rather than all the time.

    So my question is what are the potential issues with using this approach. After slamming the pool last week it has been clear for the last 5 days with pump off and no additional chlorine added. I'm going to keep watching it to see how long it stays clear for. I'm hoping it will just stay clear given it is dosed up with algaecide.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Welcome to TFP!

    I doubt you will,find anyone here who would support your proposed methods. Over use of copper based algeacides leads to staining of pool surfaces as well as turning lighter colored hair green.

    May I ask where Act is?
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post

    May I ask where Act is?
    Hi, it's a state in Australia.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by Shertiger View Post
    Hi, it's a state in Australia.
    Got it, thanks

    I invite you to,begin reading in Pool School, starting with the ABCs of Pool Water Chemestry. This may better explain our methods.

    While the algecide may keep the algae in check, it does nothing for other pathogens in the water.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Yeah I've read a lot of the guides and advice on the forum including the pool school stuff. What I like is that things are explained and are logical. Unlike what you hear from some pool shops which rely on scare tactics. So regarding my question I'm hoping for some logical advice that I can take on board and apply
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    See the relative kill times for chlorine vs. copper and silver in the table in this post. Copper is an algaecide, but does not kill fecal bacteria and metal ions aren't great at inactivating viruses. So while you may not get visible algae, that doesn't mean your pool is safe from pathogens. Now the risk in residential pools is lower because of the low bather-load, but if you wanted to cover your bases with fecal bacteria you'd need a combination copper/silver system. The problem with using metal ions is that they can stain, especially plaster pool surfaces (fiberglass next, vinyl the least).

    You need something in the bulk pool water to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth and the formation of bio-films even when the pump is off and you aren't using the pool. If you don't maintain a chlorine level, then you'd need to use unconventional methods such as the copper/silver but with staining risk and you could lower phosphate levels as well to further slow down growth. Use of a bio-film inhibitor would be the last unconventional method but would need to be used in combination, not alone.

    It would of course be better if you would just keep the pool chlorinated even if you turned down your pump run-time to be less frequent. If you wanted to use less chlorine, then you could target a lower FC/CYA ratio (say 3%) so would lose half as much chlorine to sunlight. You'd then just need to prevent algae growth where keeping phosphates low would do that without the risk for metal staining.

    None of the above is the normal way to maintain a pool described on this forum, but what you are asking is not conventional.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Thanks for that link, very informative. So would there be any issues with dosing up the night before with chlorine. Most pathogens look they will be killed in a few mins. My CYA level at the moment is just under 60 so from my understanding I'd normally have to aim for a FC level of 5ppm.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by Shertiger View Post
    Thanks for that link, very informative. So would there be any issues with dosing up the night before with chlorine. Most pathogens look they will be killed in a few mins. My CYA level at the moment is just under 60 so from my understanding I'd normally have to aim for a FC level of 5ppm.
    Once biofilms form, chlorine is much less effective. Those kill rates are for pathogens in a Petri dish. In real life, bacteria form thick biofilms (ever look down your kitchen sink pipes?) that limit or arrest the transfer of chlorine.

    So yes, you can dispense chlorine the night before and kill some bacteria. However, if your pool has any significant load of bacteria in it, that chlorine will be immediately consumed. Bacteria and algae can reproduce at extremely fast rates. Algae can double their numbers in under 45mins. Some bacteria can double their colony sizes at rates faster than that. So one single dose of chlorine will have little to no effect on the bacteria population. This is why when we advise people to SLAM their pools, they must maintain shock levels of chlorine for days in order to overwhelm the pathogens and algae and completely eliminate them.

    The method of pool care you are contemplating is incompatible with what is taught here. You can not mix & match methods - if you choose to do your "just in time" chlorination, then you are going to have to experiment with very high levels of chlorine to see what works. The FC/CYA ratios recommended here are for those that follow the TFPC Method which assumes a consistent and frequent chlorine dosing method.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    What's the goal with this just in time approach? Save time? Save money? Both?
    John - 16,000 gallon | in ground | pebble | Triton II sand filter | TF100 | speedstir | Hayward Phoenix 2x

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinic View Post
    What's the goal with this just in time approach? Save time? Save money? Both?
    Yes both really. The pool only gets used a handful of times all season so hardly worth the effort and cost.

    I'll see if I can get the kids to use it more this season which will then justify the time and cost.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by Shertiger View Post
    Yes both really. The pool only gets used a handful of times all season so hardly worth the effort and cost.

    I'll see if I can get the kids to use it more this season which will then justify the time and cost.
    Why have the pool then? That's actually a serious question.

    If the pool is so under-utilized then it makes no sense to have a pool. Is it a type of pool that you can "easily" remove from your property, like an above-ground type pool? If not, is your water table low enough that you could simply drain and cover the pool?

    The other option that I can think of for such an under-utilized pool is to install a salt-water chlorine generator and cover the pool with a well-fitted opaque pool cover. You still have to run the pumps and keep the pool chlorinated during the hot months, but if you block the UV from the sun and keep the pool covered to cut down evaporation, then it should be relatively easy to manage especially with a salt-water chlorine generator. You would just need to run the pumps enough to keep moderate levels of chlorine in place and keep the pH in check.

    Putting algaecide in the pool and leaving the circulation off with little or no chlorine management for long periods of time is a recipe for a green disaster. Once the pool does go green, it will be both an eye-soar to you and your neighbors (assuming the pool is visible to anyone around you) AND it will require enormous efforts to clean up. So any time and money you save now by not attending to it each day will simply be shifted to the future when you try to clean up a toxic mess.

    Good luck to you.
    Matt
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Why have the pool then? That's actually a serious question.

    Matt
    Yeah agree It's in-ground and at the moment too hard to remove. I'm hoping if I get it into good working order the kids will start using it more.

    For the moment based on what has been posted I think this 'Just in time' approach might not be one of my best ideas. I'll stick to adding chlorine on a regular basis.

    I topped up yesterday going from 0.5ppm FC to 4ppm. This morning the pool had gone from clear to slight cloudy. Not sure why. Would the FC be reacting with pathogens and making the water cloudy?
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    The cloudiness is likely an algae bloom. That 0.5ppm FC is most likely too low but you'd need to post of full set of water tests to know for sure. Since you're in Australia, do you have a high quality test kit based on DPD-FAS chlorine testing chemistry? There are other Aussies on TFP who have managed to find good test kits so you can reach out to them for info on that.

    If you follow the TFPC Method taught in this site (we don't refer to it much as "BBB" around here), your pool could be very easy to take care of. Most of us spend not much more than 5-10 mins/day and perhaps 30mins on a Saturday doing "pool maintenance". The entire purpose of this site is devoted to teaching people how to care for their pool in the easiest and most cost-effective way. If you can get to that place with your pool, then who cares if the kids use it or not as it will be clean, open and ready for use anytime with little change to your daily pool care routine.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    I don't yet have a high test quality kit but did manage to go from a green pool to crystal clear following the TFPC method and careful dilution of pool water to estimate FC levels.

    I don't think the slight cloudiness is due to algae bloom as the copper algaecide already in the water should be preventing that. CYA levels are about 60, PH 7.4 and TA 130.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Shertiger- the following Australian company has the FAS -DPD and a CYA test which will be the most important components you require if a SLAM is indeed in order. My experience is that they are have been fantastic getting back to me with related queries and I placed an order for some refills and it was shipped the same day! Their website is Clear Choice Labs | Simple. Accurate. Fast.. Postage is $7 which is much more reasonable than US rates and the goods will obviously get to you quicker. Forget about using the Australian pool testing company NQ Pool testing.They have not been getting a good rap on recent threads!
    11 000 gallons, IG, Fibreglass, Monarch Sand Filter, Davey Typhoon C100M 1HP pump, Davey Chloromatic Mc16CTO ESR SWG, Davey Pool Wall Climba Robot, Daisy Solar Cover,
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Awesome thanks will look into that.

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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Shertinger, if you're relying on kid's use to rationalize the pool, that means one day it will obsolesce for you to some extent...while I personally love pools and use mine daily in season, I think this deckover solution is cool for those who want to retire their pools: Deckover Pool Retirement - Home

    It nets you extra storage, a nice deck, and still leaves the excavation for future rehab if one changes one's mind

    That said, I find maintenance an enjoyable morning routine because its what happens right before my morning swim If you DO love to swim but have just gotten too busy...get up a half hour earlier and give yourself a treat
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Saltwater chlorine generators are VERY common in Australia and as was suggested by Matt (JoyfulNoise) above, that may be a very reasonable option for ease of maintenance. Of course, there is up-front cost, but ongoing cost can be low. If you use any technique that doesn't maintain a disinfectant level, you increase your risk. As was noted, biofilm formation is the biggest risk. Bacteria can double in population every 15 to 60 minutes under ideal conditions. So one bacteria can turn into billions in as little as 8 hours. With algae, it's slower since doubling time is roughly 3 to 8 hours. The best way to prevent biofilm is to kill bacteria before they have a chance to form such film and chlorine does that very well. Without a disinfectant, you'd have to use biofilm inhibitors and none are totally effective -- they inhibit, but do not completely prevent biofilms. They are designed to be used as an adjunct to regular disinfection, not a replacement.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    I use SWG here and it works great. Once you get it figured out on run time and salt levels to maintain the proper FC/CYA levels, it is virtually maintenance free. I checked my water chems a few times a week over the summer, and they basically stayed the same. I could "guess" the results before even testing. Also, an advantage with SWG, is with CYA level around 70ppm, your FC level is a little lower. Usually b/t 4 and 6ppm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Plus, we like the feel the salt gives the water. And it's not even enough salt to taste or burn your eyes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ha Ha. I just read that and it sounded funny. Not that you would want to taste your eyes!
    Ant
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    Re: Just in time chlorinatation

    Thanks for the advice and links guys, really appreciate it.

    I ran the pool filter all last night and now have a clear pool again

    Will see how the season goes using liquid chlorine and then decide about SWG.
    30000 litre fibreglass in ground with sand filter

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