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Thread: First tests are in - OUCH

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    questa macchina's Avatar
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    First tests are in - OUCH

    CL> 10
    FC 30.5 (turned milky white not clear clear- hope this is ok)
    CC .5
    TC 31
    PH 7.2
    TA 150
    CH - 1250 did it twice as I was just stunned -
    CYA +100 about 1/2" below the 100 line

    Pool looks clear as it ever was and pesky algae blooms seem to be under control

    As noted in an earlier post I've been adding a gallon of 8.25% bleach x 6 days while awaiting the arrival of the test kit
    FYI the CH on the City of Tucson tap water is 275

    Looking at the CH and the CYA and what little reading I've done it appears that I'm looking at a drain and refill

    Really? is there any way around this?

    Can it be done in some step wise fashion without driving to the poor house to pay the water bill? How to determine the cost of the 69% refill per the Pool Math?

    Your sage advice is implored and much appreciated
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Really? is there any way around this?
    No.

    What is your cost of water per 1k gallons? multiply that times the number of gallons you intend to replace.
    Dave S.
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Questa macchina (This vehicle - car):

    Replacing water is the only way to reduce CYA and possibly CH in your case. Have you owned the pool for a long time? Do you know what the contributing factors were for the high CH and CYA?

    Grazie un milione
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    questa macchina's Avatar
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Thank you for the responses:

    Can the water exchange be done incrementally, i.e. drain it down a foot or so refill, retest and what impact does this have on other chemistry - do I just drain refill and retest??
    what to watch out for?
    Seeing as how the FC is way high do I just watch and let it "float" down to the desired range 3 to 7
    Did not add the gallon of bleach (as recommended - see prior post "Waiting for Test kit") today and the spots of algae have reappeared. what's that about with FC at 30.5??

    Re how'd we get here CYA and CH wise: ... my guess is that since the pool was re-plastered in 2006 we've used trichlor tabs and not much else. Assuming Sonoran desert evaporation, not much rain - less than the 12" annual precipitation over those years and midrange CH topping off of City water.

    questa macchina comes from the first 2 words of the sentence "questa macchina mangia Fiat" in reference to the 1954 Hillman once owned when I was a student in Rome in the '60's which was felt to be a far superior automobile than the local Fiat 500's of that era. q.m. is a handle that I use on a scooter website, as my daily drive is a Vespa
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    I figure that it should cost around $35 to refill the pool (assuming I'm reading the Tuscon water rate chart correctly?) which many wouldn't bat an eye about spending on a chemical at the pool store if that would solve thier pool woes...am I right??
    My Amazon Smile for November12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Welcome to the forum.

    You should do an extended CYA test to determine your CYA level. The standard test tops out at 90-100ppm.

    With your CYA above 100 I recommend you keep your FC around 10-15ppm until we know exactly where your CYA is.

    From step 9 of the CYA Extended Test Directions:
    If your CYA level is 90 or higher, repeat the test adjusting the procedure as follows:
    1. Fill the mixing bottle to the lower mark with pool water.
    2. Continue filling the mixing bottle to the upper mark with tap water.
    3. Shake briefly to mix.
    4. Pour off half of the contents of the mixing bottle, so it is again filled to the lower mark.
    5. Continue the test normally, but multiply the final result by two.

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Can the water exchange be done incrementally, i.e. drain it down a foot or so refill
    Yes, you can do exchange water this way.

    retest and what impact does this have on other chemistry - do I just drain refill and retest?? what to watch out for?
    It is suggested you test your PH, CH and TA of your fill water. Because you are exchanging in small increments, this will not make that much of a difference. No need to test each time, but considering you are getting a new test kit, maybe testing daily is best at this point.

    Seeing as how the FC is way high do I just watch and let it "float" down to the desired range 3 to 7 Did not add the gallon of bleach (as recommended - see prior post "Waiting for Test kit") today and the spots of algae have reappeared. what's that about with FC at 30.5??
    Because you are SLAM'ing and exchanging water, I would definitely keep the FC levels at recommend ranges based on CYA, especially if you have algae. Yes, add a gallon of bleach until you receive your test kit.

    Let's get down your CYA and then work on CH, if really that high. Pools can be managed with such high levels. Your new kit will give you precise, accurate testing.

    questa macchina comes from the first 2 words of the sentence "questa macchina mangia Fiat" in reference to the 1954 Hillman once owned when I was a student in Rome in the '60's which was felt to be a far superior automobile than the local Fiat 500's of that era. q.m. is a handle that I use on a scooter website, as my daily drive is a Vespa
    Very nice. I studied in NJ. The Fiat 500's are not built in Italy (at least the one you can purchase here in the United States). Plan on taking a 2 week trip in 2016 to see the relatives.
    14,700 gallons IG Pool Vinyl Liner - Octal Circulation System
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    questa macchina's Avatar
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    ooooh my head hurts.......... all this arithmetic and new information But gosh thanks

    yes per Tucson water's website and converting Ccf's to gallons and more arithmetic....... $36 is hey a bargain! we're so knee jerk about water here in the great south west that i assumed it would be hugely expensive

    yes will attempt the extended CYA here shortly
    also do the TA and PH on the tap water too - as noted I did do the CH on the tap water at 275

    again thank you thank you all

    Sorry for the confusion but I now am the proud owner/ user of the TF 100 - i will test the afternoon FC too - Have guests but they're out for the rest of the day
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    It's not going to cost $36 to fill the pool...try ~ $200! I don't know where you're getting the rate info from but Tucson Water is a tiered rate system -

    First 7 CCF's cost $1.40/CCF
    Next 8 CCF's cost $2.70/CCF
    After that it's $7.23/CCF

    15,000 Gal = ~20CCF's , with all of the fees, the water will cost you ~ $93.00. Sewerage fees will cost you another $83.00 and taxes & random fees another ~$10

    You won't be given a break on a "new" fill (no sewerage fee charged) because you will be dumping water into the sewer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You can certainly drain and refill in stages but it will take longer and more water to lower your CH and CYA. Every time you drain and refill, the new water is mixed with old water and you get a dilution effect.
    Matt
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    questa macchina's Avatar
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Extended CYA =200
    TAP H2O CH = 275
    PH = 7.5
    TA = 120

    Afternoon FC = 26 PPM
    CC = .5

    does this mean to get CL up to "shock Levels" we're looking at double the CYA chart's 39 (78 ppm) or 9 gallons of bleach??

    or just thinking out loud, need to drain 1/2 the pool and refill and then start bringing things up to shock level which maybe more economical yes?
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    First tests are in - OUCH

    You need to drain first. Trying to manage the chemistry at 200ppm stabilizer is just not at all feasible. The DPD-FAS test can't read above 50ppm FC so you'd be working off diluted tests.

    Drain first, then SLAM, then balance.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Before I had the extended CYA I was thinking the CYA was 100 and per the pool math I would need to replace 60% to get the CYA to 40.
    I figured first 7 Ccf (5,236 gal) at $1.40 = $9.80 and the next 8 Ccf (5,984 gal) at $2.70 = $21.60 totaled close to a 60% replacement and close to $36.

    Does this mean that when I go over the first 15 Ccf's I'm paying the top rate for all the CCf's in a billing period?

    I was not aware of the other costs mentioned - looks like a call to the city on Monday as I'm just going off their website
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Quote Originally Posted by questa macchina View Post
    Before I had the extended CYA I was thinking the CYA was 100 and per the pool math I would need to replace 60% to get the CYA to 40.
    I figured first 7 Ccf (5,236 gal) at $1.40 = $9.80 and the next 8 Ccf (5,984 gal) at $2.70 = $21.60 totaled close to a 60% replacement and close to $36.

    Does this mean that when I go over the first 15 Ccf's I'm paying the top rate for all the CCf's in a billing period?

    I was not aware of the other costs mentioned - looks like a call to the city on Monday as I'm just going off their website
    Ah, ok, I see where you're coming from. But you have forgotten to factor in you baseline monthly water usage. Do you plan on not using anymore water than what you fill the pool with during that month? No, right. So the water you fill your pool with will likely hit whatever tier your baseline usage ends up at. How much water do you use every month? Look at your last bill and then tack on the extra 15CCF's to it. And yes, you have figure in the sewerage rate AND some of the "fees" are charged as $/CCF (e.g., CAP Charge is $0.60/CCF).
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Here's another idea for us desert dwellers - how much irrigation water do you think you use? If you have an irrigation system you can simply shut it off and use your pool water to water your landscape vegetation. Then, as the water level drops, you can use the water you would have applied to your landscaping as pool fill water. It's not a perfect 1:1 match because you'd likely water your plants more with a garden hose than the standard irrigation system does, but it's a (very) slow method for dropping your stabilizer level that will only add a few extra bucks to your water bill. In the mean time, you will have to live with high CYA pool water and dose your FC to high levels to keep the pool as algae free as possible. So you will continue to spend lots of $$$$ on Clorox bleach.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Quote Originally Posted by Catanzaro View Post
    ...The Fiat 500's are not built in Italy (at least the one you can purchase here in the United States). Plan on taking a 2 week trip in 2016 to see the relatives.
    The Fiat 500's, the original ones from the '60s that quester macchina compared with his Hillman were made in Italy. The Fiat 500's that you buy today are retro-production cars made to look similar to the original, much like new Beetle's and new Mini's.
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Your CYA testing is at 200 ppm. Was this with a 50% Tap Water/50% Pool Water? If so, please use 2 parts tap and 1 part pool water and run the CYA test again. You may very well be over 200 ppm. As Joyfulnoise mentioned, exchanging water is your only option. Unless you have a company with an RO procedure, but this will cost a lot more (Reverse Osmosis).
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    questa macchina's Avatar
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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    do I then multiple results x3?
    again thanks to all
    .....and we're noodling the economics of when to drain.
    we're thinking that algae stops growing at around 60 - could we drain- partially drain without refilling
    can the pool be left with out water for any great length of time? we have to be out of town in the Spring for a couple weeks and therefore our base water usage will be low.
    15k gallon IG plaster pool (10 year post re-plaster),1HP Hayward RS-1000 pump, Pentair Triton II sand filter

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    Re: First tests are in - OUCH

    Yes, a 2:1 dilution means 2 parts distilled water to 1 part pool water then multiply results by 3.

    You can not leave plaster exposed and allowed to dry out for long periods of time. It can crack.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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