I just wanted to point out a couple of things I found that differ from this users experience. I pulled apart my first Goldline T-15cell in 2005 when the first unit failed. I did not take any pictures but I did find that my plates were completely corroded. Living in Arizona our water has a very high level of Calcium and I have also measured 700ppm of incoming salt in the water. Over time my salt level creeps up and I have to dump 1/3 of the pool every 3 years to bring the level back down. I also noticed the tar/epoxy that protects the end of the connection nuts like gelatin. I have a different theory about this. In the early years when my pool was new I cleaned the cell once every 2 months in the muriatic acid solution dipping the whole cell in the Acid Bucket. I questioned this because it exposes the wiring end connection to the acid. I eventually purchased a seal stand that keeps the solution inside the cell without exposing the wiring. Since changing my method I have not seen failed cells with the epoxy end connections soft. I have not tracked every cell replaced but I believe I have been through 5 cells since 2001. The calcium levels in AZ are so high with evaporation in the summer that I usually use up 1 gallon of Acid 29.9% every 3 weeks. If I forget to add in a month my pH is up around 8.6-8.8. I too am a fan of reuse but in complete honesty you really did get your $$$worth by getting 9 years out of your cell. My first cell lasted around 4 years but ever since the first one failed I've been getting around 3 years if I'm lucky. Some of this is my fault as I get frustrated with Calcium buildup sometimes adding more acid in solution than recommended. If I don't keep on top of the cell in the summer or the pH in the pool a 2 year old cell will read 1700 salt level and the plates will be completely bridged with calcium. I suspect that the need to regularly clean the plates removes the Rhodium from the Titanium. Once it is gone your cell plates build-up quickly with calcium and the built-in controller reverse polarity cleaning mode doesn't work very well. The other adverse condition in AZ pools is the slow migration of Calcium and solids out of the cement holding the Pebble Tec or plaster together. If you have a Vinyl or Fiber-Glass pool this is not an issue because you have no migration of any minerals from pool to water. One other note, withthe pressures that are produced by the pump since I have an in-floor cleaning system with Pop-Ups the modular cell is more troublesome and has a much higher leak potential. There are several after-market cells manufactured to replace Hayward/Goldline's design but I think you will find that they are much less reliable and most people who have purchased them are dissatisfied with their performance. I always thought the clear design would be great to check the cell buildup without having to remove it but in talking with some techs at Goldline Controls and Shasta (pool builder) the opaque cell is more efficient in Arizona Sun. The reason why the generator shuts down below 60C is because you don't need much chlorine when the temp is so low. I use my pool all year with a heater and keep the temp around 68-70 but only cycle the system around 4hrs a day. The chlorine is always at the upper end even with minimal run time.
Salt Cell Failure - Post-mortem with pictures
- Thread starter DeadAquaRite
- Start date
Sorry coating misquoted as Rhodium instead of Ruthenium as coating. Well at least they are both members of the Platinum Group so have similar properties.
Has anyone tried a less active acid like oxalic to remove calcium? What about ultrasonic?
Can't test as we get almost zero build up. The plates above have never been cleaned.
Can't test as we get almost zero build up. The plates above have never been cleaned.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,404
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
One could use acetic acid but calcium acetate has poor solubility so thick scale build up would be a problem. CLR has lactic and gluconic acid in it which works a bit better. I suppose MA is suggested because most pool owners have it on hand and calcium chloride is very soluble in water.
What I've seen people do and what has been shown on YouTube videos is people mixing the muriatic acid and water directly in the cell which is huge no-no. First off, one should only use the most dilute solution. I get mild scale so I only typically clean with a 9:1 dilution (IC manual says 4:1). But I ALWAYS mix up my dilution first in a glass container and then add it to the cell. As well, most manuals say to clean for 30mins but I only leave the solution in for as long as it takes any bubbles to cease. Then I finally rinse with DI water.
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Excellent post mortem, and I have no doubt that your cell had a sudden death due to the connection corroding and disconnecting, but I think that the vast majority of cells fail due to erosion of the cell plates. I too have a background in electroplating, specializing in hard chrome. I too also got many years use from my Hayward cell, then got sticker shock from the price of a new cell at the time and was very unsatisfied with the lack of support service provided by Hayward and decided there was an opportunity to enter the market with a cell that we spec'd out , but that is neither here nor there when it comes to this particular discussion.. My Hayward cell died a slow death with the current level continuing to rise from the nominal 5 amps up to almost 10 amps which is what you would expect when the conductive coating of the plates erode and leave the tungsten substrate. As you know, when hard chroming steel, the current is in initially reversed to both clean the excess oxides and etch the surface for better adhesion. The cell operates the same way. To prevent fouling the placates, the current is periodically reversed which both cleans and slightly etches away the ruthenium and iridium oxides. Plate spec life is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be depending on the amount of coating laid down. The total hours are determined by the number of hours the filter pump runs times the duty cycle. So a pump running for 6 hours and 40% uses 2.4 hours. Since the filter time and duty cycle depend on many parameters like water temp, size of pool, hard water, whether it's covered or not to keep out dirt, stabilizer level, pool chemistry, geographical location, etc, some people are able to get 10 years use from a good cell while others only get one year. Compare it to the need to rotate tires on your car to achieve optimum performance and even wear. Failure to maintain the cell is going to cut down on it's useful life. There are not that many plate suppliers in the world and it's virtually impossible to determine if the cell manufacturers are supplied consistent thicknesses. These materials are not applied using electrochemical means they are brushed and baked multiple times to achieve the desired thickness. It's very labor intensive which is why the prices are what they are and probably can't get any less expensive. Everything else just depends on your overhead..
UPDATE:
About once a year I get requests for these images. Twice now I have updated them, twice now the photo host I used has stopped working and left broken links. To prevent future loss of data, I have reposted all the images to my blog, complete with comments. If one of the admins wants to go back and relink or embed the images, please feel free.
pldoolittle.blogspot.com
There is also another salt cell disassembly from 2020 documented here:
www.troublefreepool.com
About once a year I get requests for these images. Twice now I have updated them, twice now the photo host I used has stopped working and left broken links. To prevent future loss of data, I have reposted all the images to my blog, complete with comments. If one of the admins wants to go back and relink or embed the images, please feel free.
Salt Cell Failure - Post-mortem with pictures
Philip's Tech Corner - Hacking things to make life more interesting...
pldoolittle.blogspot.com
There is also another salt cell disassembly from 2020 documented here:
Salt Cell Post Mortem #2
Five years ago I hacked apart my dead Hayward T-15 for "science". This week my Chlorinator Pro CP-15 gave up the ghost. Once again, I disassembled it and here are the pictures... Notes: - The electrodes were not corroded. They broke during violent disassembly. - The sealant was not tar like. It...
www.troublefreepool.com
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Correct me if im wrong but if the primary failure of these units is galvanic corrosion between the different metals then it wouldn't really make a difference if one oversizes the SWG to their pool.
The idea of running a bigger unit with a lower % may not make sense if one is spending more $ on a larger unit than necessary.
The idea of running a bigger unit with a lower % may not make sense if one is spending more $ on a larger unit than necessary.
Meadow
0
Got the photos. Thanks. New to SWG's and pool ownership. My Hayward T-3 cell lasted 3yrs 8months. I had a quick failure so my guess is I lost generation with a internal terminal connection failure. I had been getting accurate salt readings, but then suddenly readings dropped from normal of 3000ppm to 300ppm. Panel voltage output was 31.4V and current was 0.0 amps, I think confirming a sudden loss of continuity or terminal failure. Since my pool was maintained by the previous owner for 2 years, and pretty sure it was Ignored, my hope is with my maintenance, staying on top of the chemistry, I will be able to get a longer life expectancy. Love to get 9years, but would be grateful for 5 years after reading these posts. I have the old cell and as most engineers would do, I'll be cutting if up to confirm failure. Your documentation pretty much tells me what I'll find. In the 20 months I did maintain this cell I never had accumulated scale or mineral build up and only acid cleaned once to become familiar with the process.
Here's hoping someone will market a long life cell. Like a Sieko walking into a Timex market. Thanks for the education to all who have posted, much appreciated.
There are two failure modes. One is the depletion of the coating, which will be helped by a larger unit. The other is the corrosion of the anode/cathode connection, which may not help. In my case it took 8 years to die by the latter method, and a T-15 is not oversized for me.
Based on a quick check, a Hayward T-15 is currently ~176% the price of a T-3. So you would need to roughly double your plate life to break even. However, that excludes the cost of over salting and correcting that, which is a common problem when the cell fails.
assuming no failure due to connection/blown electronics.... Is there a life cycle documentation of salt water generator cell as it ages As the coating wears down, does chlorine production gradually decrease? I see a mention of increase of calcium build occuring more often here....
Well after reviewing the Hayward T-15 cell disection photos and knowing my cell failed quickly, it's time to take mine apart to see if the failure was a corroded terminal. If so I'll refresh my brazing skills, fab a new terminal and attempt to breath life back into my cell. I'm hoping to find plates in good shape and based on salt generation up until failure, my hunch is good plates. It's not the $$, my replacement T-3 was only $269, it's the principle of premature failure! All most as bad as ......well that's another thread topic. It's hot in Florida so this will be a fall project. Thanks again for all the posts. I'll let you know if I'm successful.
PS: And I thought I was cool lunching Estes Rockets���� Your's are on steroids!
PS: And I thought I was cool lunching Estes Rockets���� Your's are on steroids!