Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Chlorine Pricing and Questions

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Chlorine Pricing and Questions

    Moderator Note - Moved from this thread : Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature - Page 2


    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    I had the Trade % wrong for the 8.25% bleach. I've corrected that in my post. It's 8.64%.
    So is trade % = % by volume as opposed to % by weight (what's listed on the bottle)? I'm looking at a bottle of bleach that says "Sodium Hypochlorite....8.25%" and "Yields 7.86% Available Chlorine". What am I looking at here with this bleach?

    ***EDIT*** I put together a formula to figure price per ounce of chlorine so I can compare cost of store-bought to HASA(12.5%). Just need to know which number to plug into the formula.
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Yes, Trade % is % Available Chlorine by volume. The 7.86% Available Chlorine you see on the bleach bottle is % Available Chlorine by weight. The 8.25% is the weight % of sodium hypochlorite. Available Chlorine is in molecular chlorine (Cl2) units. 8.25 * (70.906 g/mole Cl2 / 74.442 g/mole NaOCl) = 7.86. The Trade % for this bleach depends on its density (specific gravity) which is around 1.10 g/ml so Trade % = 7.86 * 1.10 = 8.65%. If you were to add one gallon of this bleach to 10,000 gallons of water, it would increase FC by 8.65 ppm.

    As for what to use for price per ounce, it doesn't matter so long as you are consistent for all products. I think that the Trade % is the most useful since it relates directly to the volume of product you would add and usually the price of the product is per volume (i.e. gallon) and not per weight. So Trade % is better to use when figuring the price of chlorine per fluid ounce.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Did we just slip and fall into the deep end? chem geek you are my new hero. So the 12.5% stuff I'm getting from HASA...is that 12.5% NaClO by weight or 12.5% available chlorine by volume (trade %)?


    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Chlorinating liquid is normally quoted as Trade %, but I've seen bottles of it where they say it's 12.5% sodium hypochlorite. The actual values change more rapidly but I'd just assume it's 12.5% Trade. I get Hasa from my pool store and when I add it to the pool the FC responds as if the 12.5% is Trade % though sometimes it's higher at first and of course over time it drops as it degrades.

    Assuming the Hasa is 12.5% Trade, then that is 12.5/1.16 = 10.78% Available Chlorine (by weight) and is 10.78 * 74.442 / 70.906 = 11.31% sodium hypochlorite (by weight).

    PoolMath assumes anything 10% or higher is in Trade % while below 10% it's in weight % sodium hypochlorite. That was a change we made some months ago to be a little more accurate (some people actually noticed the difference in their pools and were complaining about not matching PoolMath).
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Oh I see. So if I alternate between HASA and bleach I can just put 12.5 or 8.25 in the calculator? Genius!


    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Yes, that is correct. If you set PoolMath to 10,000 gallons and go from 0 to 8.65 ppm FC it says 128 fluid ounces of 8.25 weight % bleach while if you say to go from 0 to 12.5 ppm it says 128 fluid ounces of 12.5 trade % chlorinating liquid. I was wrong about the cutoff, though. It looks like 9% and below is weight % while anything above 9% is Trade %.

    Likewise, in the "Effects of adding chemicals" section, adding 128 fluid ounces of "6% bleach" gives 8.5 ppm FC while "12.5% bleach" gives 12 ppm FC. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of decimal places so if you add 12800 fluid ounces for "6% bleach" you see 849 which isn't quite correct while for "12.5% bleach" you see 1250 which is correct. "6% bleach" gives the correct 617 (though 5.25% is wrong giving 540 instead of 535) so I'm not sure why the 8.25% is off in this section. The code looks like the following:

    Code:
    	case 0:					// 5.25% bleach
    		oz=oz*525/600;
    	case 1:					// 6% bleach
    		oz=oz*600/825;
    	case 2:
    		oz=oz*0.84867552;
    	case 3:					// 10% bleach
    		oz=oz*100/125;
    	case 4:					// 12.5% bleach
    		result="raise FC by "+Format(oz / GetGallons() * 976.562);
    		result=result+" and raise Salt by "+Format(oz / GetGallons() *
    			1607);
    		break;
    and I believe it should be the following

    Code:
    	case 0:					// 5.25% bleach
    		oz=oz*525/600;
    	case 1:					// 6% bleach
    		oz=oz*600/825;
    	case 2:					// 8.25% bleach
    		oz=oz*(825*1.10*70.906/74.442)/1000
    	case 3:					// 10% chlorinating liquid
    		oz=oz*100/125;
    	case 4:					// 12.5% chlorinating liquid
    		result="raise FC by "+Format(oz / GetGallons() * 976.562);
    		result=result+" and raise Salt by "+Format(oz / GetGallons() *
    			1607);
    		break;
    and also for consistency the text options (elsewhere in the code) should say "10% chlorinating liquid" and "12.5% chlorinating liquid" to distinguish these from bleach in terms of being Trade (volume) % Cl2 instead of Weight % NaOCl.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Awesome. Thanks!


    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Does this math look right? I did a quick calculation on my phone's calculator before doing this to compare pool store to wal-mart and it was within 1 cent of each other and now this shows a big price difference. I quit drinking coffee so I'm a little slow in the mornings

    price per gallon price w/ tax trade % ounces factor oz of NaClO $ per oz. $ per oz of NaClO
    pool store $5.00 $5.41 12.50 128 0.1250 16.00 $0.0423 $0.6762
    wal-mart $2.94 $3.18 8.25 121 0.0825 9.98 $0.0263 $0.2626
    lowe's $3.78 $4.09 10.00 128 0.1000 12.80 $0.0320 $0.4092
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Brewer View Post
    Does this math look right? I did a quick calculation on my phone's calculator before doing this to compare pool store to wal-mart and it was within 1 cent of each other and now this shows a big price difference. I quit drinking coffee so I'm a little slow in the mornings

    price per gallon price w/ tax trade % ounces factor oz of NaClO $ per oz. $ per oz of NaClO
    pool store $5.00 $5.41 12.50 128 0.1250 16.00 $0.0423 $0.6762
    wal-mart $2.94 $3.18 8.25 121 0.0825 9.98 $0.0263 $0.2626
    lowe's $3.78 $4.09 10.00 128 0.1000 12.80 $0.0320 $0.4092
    Well, first all are not Trade %. Bleach is Weight % not volume %

    There are automated calculators out there that members have created, like this one Chlorine Price Per Ounce Calculator
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    That is true. Forgot to convert to trade %. Something is still off. Here's the updated trade % corrections with the prices from the calculator you gave me on the far right. Those are the figures I got initially so I have a formula wrong somewhere.

    price per gallon price w/ tax trade % ounces factor oz of NaClO $ per oz. $ per oz of NaClO calc
    pool store $5.00 $5.41 12.50 128 0.1250 16.00 $0.0423 $0.6762 $0.34
    wal-mart $2.94 $3.18 8.65 121 0.0865 10.47 $0.0263 $0.2753 $0.32
    lowe's $3.78 $4.09 10.48 128 0.1048 13.41 $0.0320 $0.4288 $0.32


    *** NM, I found my error! ***
    Last edited by Ale_Brewer; 10-09-2015 at 09:21 AM. Reason: *** EDIT: NM, I found my error! ***
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Well, here is the way I look at it. I would never buy chlorinating liquid from Lowes/Home Depot due to the manner in which it is stored in their locations (generally in the outdoor garden area) so that takes them off the list.

    I factor my time into the equation....You probably have more pool stores available so you pass them often. I have to go out of my way for them, so again they are off the list.

    I have found my local Dollar General carries generic 8.25% with very recent date codes less expensive than WalMart by a few cents a bottle. I drive by it daily, the store is small so it's quick in/out and there is seldom a line. If I'm at WalMart for something I'll pick it up there. if not Dollar General is quick, easy and just as inexpensive as other places
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Tim, you make some very good points. Time is a big factor for me as well. I'm currently using 12.5% HASA from my local pool store and I'm happy with it. I was just wondering if I could save some money in the long run. I avoid wal-mart like the plague but there is a dollar store really close so I might check them out.


    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  13. Back To Top    #13
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    I envy folks who have HASA close by!
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    I envy folks who have HASA close by!
    Looks like the Dollar Tree near me has 96 oz. for $1.00. Doesn't say the % but even if it's only 6.25 then that's exactly half the price of HASA. I wonder which of the two has more excess lye...
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  15. Back To Top    #15

    TFP Guide

    pabeader's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Dallas Ga
    Posts
    4,064

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Do not buy the 96 oz from Dollar tree. It is only 1-2% They do sell a 128 oz version that I have tested as high as 5+% but others have not had the same experience. The datecode is on the case. I only buy it by the case. There is a thread called 'bleach prices 2015' where I show a pic of the label on the case.

    Tim was talking about Dollar General.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here is the link: Bleach Prices 2015 - Page 19
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Thanks for the advice Bob. I guess I'll just stick with what I'm doing.
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    8,494

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    As a rule 8.25% will be marked with the concentration.

    Unmarked bottles are below that, anywhere down to 1%. Stay away.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Breakdown of bleach over time by storage temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    As a rule 8.25% will be marked with the concentration.

    Unmarked bottles are below that, anywhere down to 1%. Stay away.
    I don't know that it's unmarked on the bottle. Just doesn't say on the website.
    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

  19. Back To Top    #19

    TFP Guide

    pabeader's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Dallas Ga
    Posts
    4,064

    Re: Chlorine Pricing and Questions

    It's unmarked. Both sizes are unmarked.


    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    212

    Re: Chlorine Pricing and Questions

    Gotcha. No need to go check it out then. Thanks again!


    Curtis- 20k gallon IG gunnite/plaster with hot tub/waterfall and "grotto"
    All Jandy equipment: 60sqft DE filter - 399k btu natural gas heater - Stealth pumps - iAquaLink RS8.
    Polaris 9400 on patrol.
    TF-100 in da house/TFP method in effect: FC=4-6, pH=7.5, TA=80, CH=250, CYA=50, Borate=50, CSI=-0.21

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •