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Thread: Trouble getting the right balance

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    SuzfromTexas's Avatar
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    Trouble getting the right balance

    I've been doing this about 10 weeks - feel like I should have this down by now, but don't.

    I get one thing in balance, and then something else goes out of balance. I have a SWG system, so I've been playing with pump run times for FC and pH. I'm not doing it very well.

    Here are today's numbers:

    water temp: 79 degrees

    FC 8.5 levels had been pretty steady until about a week ago;
    FC dropped to 3, so I added bleach to support the salt cell;
    FC up to 7 (ok..., that seemed to work);
    a few days later, FC dropped to 1.5; I added bleach;
    FC up to 9.5, lowered pump run time by an hour (now 9 hrs on low);
    2 days ago, FC still at 9.5, dropped salt cell to 95%.
    today FC 8.5; lowered pump run time by an hour (now 8 hrs on low)
    CC: 0

    pH: 8.2 (had been sitting very nicely around 7.5)

    TA: 90 Pool Math says to add 62 oz of MA to lower pH to 7.2; then aerate to raise pH back up to 7.5)

    CH: 375 I was shooting for 350 which always seemed to get a better CSI on Pool Math; it seemed to take me forever to raise up the CH. Some weeks I would add calcium increaser and there would be no budge in the numbers, sometimes even dropping. A week ago, it was at 275, so I added enough for 350, and now it's a tad too high. Do I wait for rain and/or adding some water when needed to lower the CH, or have I messed up and need to drain some. ( our tap water began at 75, soft)

    CYA: 70

    salt level: 3200

    CSI: today it is 0.47; if I met the goals, it would be -0.58. Either way, the CSI message says both have the potential to be corrosive (I think that's what it said....) Somewhere I read that a CSI between -0.6 and +0.6 is good. But then the messages on Pool Math don't show a balance until around -0.3 and +0.3 So that also confuses me.

    I think I have too many questions in here. I'm sorry. This is all so confusing. Just when I think I'm getting the hang of it, then it looks like I'm bombing out.

    Oh, the water continues to look great.

    Thanks so much for your help and patience!!!! I'm not going to do anything until I hear back.
    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Hi Suz! You got yourself all wrapped-up in numbers huh? For CSI, what I learned is that adjusting CH on it's own doesn't really change the CSI a whole lot. Manipulating the pH and TA to meet your needs works best. Even people outside the recommended CH range can have a great CSI reading. So try adjusting the pH and TA on the calculator then adjust from there. Of course try to find a TA (sometimes lower) that keeps your pH happy as well. As for your FC, I wonder if perhaps you're not having an issue with your SWG itself? Maybe you need to troubleshoot it alone, or perhaps turn it off and go manual for a day or so just to rule-out anything odd in the water? You know others will chime-in shortly and overwhelm you with ideas. So hang on!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    What is your CYA level? You should not be losing that much FC. The SWG should easily be able to maintain the correct FC level.
    16 x 32 17500 gallons
    Vinyl in-ground
    Hayward 250# Sand Filter
    1 HP Pump
    Hayward SWG

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    And as far as TA goes, don't worry too much about it. Just adjust your pH down until it stabilizes. If at that time your CSI is not where you want it. You can always use pool math to see what will get it there.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    hi suz,
    there has been a recent change to ch levels to improve csi on swg pools
    new levels are 350ppm to 450ppm
    are you using the pool math link at top of page or an old pool calculator bookmark
    at the bottom of pool math page in the yellow box set
    goal levels from tfp
    primary chlorine = swg and plaster pool
    shows csi -0.6 to +0.6
    with your new build, ph will be more work than usual for first year
    as ta lowers ph will become more stable
    i would not make any effort to lower ta as it will come down as you control your ph
    when your ta is 70ppm or lower try targeting a slightly higher ph 7.8? and see if it wants to hold with less acid additions
    SWG inground peanut shaped eco-bright concrete pool
    50,000 litres 13,000 gallons
    Lincoln Salt Chlorinator, 25 gram cell Sand Filter with glass media
    Taylor K2006-C test kit, Taylor K-1766 salt test, Dolphin M500 pool cleaner
    are you taking care of your pool or is the poolshop taking care of you

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    FC 8.5 levels had been pretty steady until about a week ago;
    FC dropped to 3, so I added bleach to support the salt cell;
    FC up to 7 (ok..., that seemed to work);
    a few days later, FC dropped to 1.5; I added bleach;
    FC up to 9.5, lowered pump run time by an hour (now 9 hrs on low);
    2 days ago, FC still at 9.5, dropped salt cell to 95%.
    today FC 8.5; lowered pump run time by an hour (now 8 hrs on low)
    CC: 0
    After the sun is down a bit more (maybe an hour), shut off the SWG and test your FC.....don't add,subtract or do anything just test it.

    Tomorrow AM, as close to sun-up as possible, please do the FC test again. Tell us the FC difference between the two tests.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Thanks Everyone!

    Texas Splash: You're right.... I am all tangled up with numbers, and sometimes I can get too wrapped up in them. That's why I decided I'd better have a 10 week check-up with ya'll. Like most of you said, I'll just focus on getting the pH stable (happy). I'm wondering, too, about that crazy FC. Maybe I messed up on the test, or maybe we had a round of rains then. I guess I should make note of that on my record sheet until I get all this saved in my memory cells.

    Griswald: CYA today was 70 which seems good. But maybe if I keep having FC issues, I should get it higher a little. More times than not, I've had higher than needed FC since we switched to the SWG system. I had begun to back off on pump hours and the salt cell percent. Then it seemed to all come crashing down. Now, the FC numbers are high again. It could be I'm rushing the results of the pump run times and salt cell settings too much. I'll try to lower things more slowly and see if I can get the FC to hold around 4-6.

    Pabeader: Thanks! What you're suggesting is pretty much how I've been handling things. So that's reassuring. It's just the last week or so, things seemed to be getting away from me. Could be all in my head!!!!

    Aussieta: That's good to know about the change to CH levels in a SWG pool for CSI. It did seem when I pushed that higher on Pool Math, my CSI numbers were better.

    I am using the Pool Math link at the top of the page. At this point, I'm trying to go by the book! (the TFP book, that is)

    I got the same CSI range of numbers from TFP Pool School as you mentioned above. I was just confused when I hit calculate in Pool Math and mouse over the CSI numbers, the message in the box says something like "potential for scaling or becoming corrosive". I guess the thinking here is not to worry about that message as long as I keep the water between -0.6 and +0.6 CSI.

    I really appreciate everyone's input. Slowly but surely I'm learning - I think!!!

    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    After the sun is down a bit more (maybe an hour), shut off the SWG and test your FC.....don't add,subtract or do anything just test it.

    Tomorrow AM, as close to sun-up as possible, please do the FC test again. Tell us the FC difference between the two tests.
    Dave, I just saw your message..... Ok, I'll shut off the SWG and test the FC. Then I'll do the morning test again about 7 our time. Isn't the SWG not running when the pumps are off, or is it still working? My pumps turn off for the night at 8:00pm. But this evening I'll turn them off around 7pm Central.
    Thanks,
    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    SWG is not being used when the pump is of. It has to have water flow for it to be generating. Try dropping percentage down by running the pump 15 minutes less each time, and check numbers, then try 30 minute reduction and see what happens. This has worked for me over the past week.
    Mark
    20'x28' IG, Vinyl, (Sept 2015) 14,900 Gallon, 3'4 to 5'6 deep, SPLAPOOL 1.5 HP, 220v, 2 speed pump, Waterway Carefree 27" 400 LB Sand filter, Digital Nano plus SWG, TF-100 test kit /speed stir. Dolphin Primal x3 robotic cleaner

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    aussieta's Avatar
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    looking at the specs for the aquapure 1400
    it produces 20 oz of chlorine at 100% for 24 hours
    in a 24,000 gallon pool equals 6.2ppm free chlorine
    equals 0.258ppm per hour at 100%
    9 hours at 95% equals about 2.2ppm
    SWG inground peanut shaped eco-bright concrete pool
    50,000 litres 13,000 gallons
    Lincoln Salt Chlorinator, 25 gram cell Sand Filter with glass media
    Taylor K2006-C test kit, Taylor K-1766 salt test, Dolphin M500 pool cleaner
    are you taking care of your pool or is the poolshop taking care of you

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Try dropping percentage down by running the pump 15 minutes less each time, and check numbers, then try 30 minute reduction and see what happens. This has worked for me over the past week.
    My point is to do an OCLT before going back to all the adjustments with the SWG. If OP does not pass the OCLT, all adjustments and calculations are off the table.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Dave, here are the FC results.

    9.0 - 8:00 last evening (central)

    9.5 - 7:00 this morning (central)

    Higher.....?

    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Good morning Suz! I bet Dave will chime-in soon. Me personally, I suspect the rise was either a slight variation in the testing method (drop size, vile amount, or something else minor) or perhaps the bleach simply needed a little more time to mix thoroughly with the water. Good thing is it didn't go down! Now you can focus your attention on other issues like SWG FC production and a good CSI level. Have a nice day.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Texas Splash is right on the money. The whole point was that you didn't LOSE FC overnight. That's a good thing and confirms that the only issue you have is with SWG adjustment. (disregard that .5 ppm gain)

    Now you can focus on just the SWG.

    I would turn the SWG back on and set it at about 70%. Since you already have an FC test this AM, see if you gain or lose during the course of the day. Do not add any bleach but let the SWG handle ALL your chlorination.

    Post your FC result back up this evening.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Good news, guys! Thanks.

    Ok, I'll change the percent level and post again this evening.

    Appreciate your time,
    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Just to clear up a couple of things when you post your result later this evening, tell us how many hours you are now running the pump. Also, how many of those hours are on high and low speeds.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Will do!
    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    i have the same chlorinator and notice that at 80-83 degrees, i need to run my chlorinator a lot more (same one as yours) or supplement with liquid chlorine. CA weather has been a real roller coaster so now im down to 70-75 degrees and SWG is making WAY more than i needed at 80-83. this is, of course a fact of life that it burns off quicker at higher tems. has your water temp warmed up a lot lately?
    12000g pool + 1000g spa. Jandy 2.0hp epump + separate Jandy pump for Sheer Descent. Jandy CV Cartridge Filter. Jandy Lxi gas heater. Tropical Breeze PebbleTec. Aqualink. Aquapure SWG. Nature 2. The Pool Cleaner 2x. Taylor K-2005.

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    No our temperature has been slowly going down. It's hovering around 79 degrees since we had some cooler nights last week (low 60's). The forecast is for a slight warmup, but I don't think the water temp will go up more than a couple of degrees.

    Thanks for your input!
    Suz.
    Suz~Cypress area~ 2015 pool build. 23K gallons. IG swcg system. 35'x18'; 573sf; 104' perim; depth 4'-7'. Bubblers, sheer descents, 7' spa. Jandy: color LEDs; 2HP 2sp pump; 1HP 2sp pump; spa pump; 580 cartridge; 400K BTU; Dolphin M500; PS8; Inline chlorinator not used; Aqua Pure 1400. Blue Granite Sheen. Travertine deck. Lightstreams Peacock Blue TF-100, K-1766, SpeedStir

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    Re: Trouble getting the right balance

    Ok, I'll change the percent level and post again this evening.
    What's up? Problem solved?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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