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Thread: calcium level

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    calcium level

    I have a new spa for about a month with the in line spa frog system. I have went crazy trying to get this correct. Finally after 4 weeks and the bromine cart is still full I realize I have no water flow through the frog. I took cap and carts out and turned pump on. Nothing. Finally took inlet hose off and turned pump on. Had flow. Hooked everything back up and now I have flow through frog, must been air locked.. So back to my question. After a complete drain and refill. I had a calcuim level at 100. I was going to set it to 200. Calculator said 4.6 ounces of calcium. For 310 gallons.
    Now I cannot get a red tint when checking calcium. Taylor 2005 kit. I can check tap water and it's about 100. I'm taking a sample to store today. Any ideas? Thanks tony

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    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    What color is the sample turning when you add the R-0011L?

    Check this post for some pointers on the CH test: Extended Test Kit Directions
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

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    Re: calcium level

    Clear

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    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    Have to say I've never seen that before. Is the reagent bottle for the R-0011L stained a blue color? The extended test kit directions state that this could be an indication the reagent dye has gone bad. Did you purchase the test kit with the spa or elsewhere?
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

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    Re: calcium level

    Yea it should turn red. With hardness present. It works with tap water. I bought the kit from our local pool store. I tried the 10ml and the 25 ml. Water setting reducing the drops as necessary. Thanks tony. I'll post back when I have store results.

    Yes the reagent was blue. And I'm using a magnetic stirring.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    Try adding 5 drops of the R-0012 hardness reagent first before adding the R-0010 buffer or R-0011L indicator. Just make sure to include the first drops in your total drop count.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Ok went to pool store they have cal at 125. So I bought the taylor 3 cal hardness bottles and will retest tonight. I will try adding the 5 drops first with the old bottles. This really has me scratching my head.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    What's in the frog spa system?


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Various minerals in the upper cartridge and the lower cartridge is the bromine.

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    Re: calcium level

    I tried both adding 5 drops of 12 first. Still nothing. Used new reagents. Still same result. I'm wondering if the mineral system is messing with the test. Cause tap water works fine. The spa water when I put 10 and 11 may have a very slight pink. Almost indecteable. any more ideas? Thanks tony

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    What is your current sanitizer level? Have you used any shocks, chlorine or MPS (non-chlorine shock)?


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Right now my bromine is at 5 ppm. I started over with fresh water and bromine bank. Shocked it with 1/2 cup clorine. The spa frog is mineral is set to 6 and the bromine is set to 4 currently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just checked tap water 100 ppm. Bright red.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    Hmmmm....the bromine should not interfere with the CH indicator dye. The mineral cartridge, as far as the MSDS reports, is nothing more than calcium carbonate and silver chloride. If the silver ions interfere, they would just cause the titrant count to be off by interacting with the EDTA but EDTA is not a very good chelant for monovalent silver (Ag+).

    It seems like your indicator dye is getting bleached by something. If you add more drops of indicator, does any color form?


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Yea using 10ml 10 drops of 10 and 5 drops of 11l it does turn pink. Though it should be 3 drops and red

    - - - Updated - - -

    And took 8 drops to turn to blue

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    It's ok to use more indicator dye, it does not affect the results.

    So it seems that something is oxidizing the indicator dye. Try a few more drops to see if you can get a deeper red color.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    If there's excess chlorine present, you can try a drop of the R-0007 thiosulfate dechlorinator from the TA test to see if that affects it.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Ok added more dye till it turned red. which is over double what the instructions call for.. it did also turn blue with a result of 200 after I added some based on the pool store calculations. ill call taylor tomorrow and update.. thanks for the help.. I appreciate it very much.. tony

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyj View Post
    Ok added more dye till it turned red. which is over double what the instructions call for.. it did also turn blue with a result of 200 after I added some based on the pool store calculations. ill call taylor tomorrow and update.. thanks for the help.. I appreciate it very much.. tony
    I wish I had a better answer for you but I did find this paper online which seems to indicate that the EBT indicator dye (Eriochrome Black T) acts as a reducing agent to monovalent silver ions. So the silver ions are reduced to silver metal and the EBT is likely oxidized in the process. This could inactivate the indicator dye. The EBT dye works by reacting with the calcium ions in your water samples and turns red. Then the titrant is added which is EDTA and is a stronger chelating agent. As the EDTA pulls calcium ions away from the EBT, the solution changes color from red to blue. The R-0010 calcium buffer is just sodium hydroxide which reacts with Mg ions (and some other metals) to precipitate them out so that they can not interfere with the Ca-EBT reaction.

    I'll stay subscribed to this thread so that I can hear about your response form Taylor. They may have a work-around for the problem if it is an issue with silver ions.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: calcium level

    Ok talked to taylor, they said it is interference with the metals in the water from the mineral system. Which means it is working. We talked about everything I have done. He really didn't want to use more 11 L. He said if I knew about the hardness level to add more 12 like 2 or 3 drops less first. So if it's app 100 ppm to add 8 drops to start of 12. I told him I have added 5 with no affect. He really had no other solution just a by product of using the mineral system. Thanks for all the replies and helping me try to figure this out. Have a blessed day. Tony

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: calcium level

    Thank you for running that down with Taylor. Good to know for future reference.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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