mandatory for SCG to be wired to filter pump relay on EasyTouch?

[LightlyToasted]

New pool owner this year. I did all NG plumbing and electrical wiring for the project.

This is an EasyTouch wiring / programming question. I would like to schedule the following programs:

1. run the pump at a low RPM with SCG (but not the heater) overnight when time-of-use electricity rates are low.
2. run the pump at a medium RPM with SCG and heater at selected times during the day when we expect to use the pool.

I have achieved 1. with a scheduled feature circuit and 2. with a scheduled pool circuit. The problem is that the SCG, which is wired according to Pentair's insistence to the filter pump relay, is not powered on for 1 since the filter pump relay is not activated.

Is it acceptable to wire the SCG transformer directly to a breaker, rather than through the filter pump relay? Is the flow sensor switch in the SCG adequate?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

By wiring the SWG to the pump relay, two conditions are being satisfied - the pump is energized and the SWG flow switched is satisfied. Those two conditions ensure that the pump is operational and moving water.

If you energize the SWG transformer with a direct power source and only rely on the flow switch as your fail-safe, there is the remote chance the flow switch could activate or get stuck in the closed position and cause the cell to generate with no water movement. If the SWG is an IntelliChlor, the flow switch is nothing more than a magnet attached to a flexible plastic arm that moves towards a reed switch when water is flowing. It is possible to manually move that magnet with your finger. Therefore it is possible (maybe not very probable) that something could jam that switch open.

So the answer is yeah you can do what your proposing but at the cost of defeating one of the two fail-safe conditions present for the device.


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[Jimrahbe]

Lightly,

The answer to your direct question is yes, you can use just the flow sensor to control the output of the SWG, a number of people here do it that way. I am not one of them, however, and like the idea of having the pump/filter relay in the circuit.

That said, there is something wrong with your set up logic, but I can't quite put my finger on it. You only have one pump, so I don't understand how your pump is running without the pump/filter relay being on???

Just so that we are both on the same page.. The pump should be getting 220 volt power at all times, which is not routed through any relays. The pump should be controlled by the serial cable connected between the pump and the Easytouch. You just have to tell the pump what speed to run for your option 1 and option 2. The pump/filter relay should be on anytime the pump is on. Basically you would set the pump to run at say 1200 (low RPM) and then set a feature to run at 1800 (Med RPM). Anytime the feature was off the pump would be running at 1200. Anytime the feature was on, the pump would be running at 1800.

Sorry I can't be more specific as I can't envision how you can have your pump running without the Pump/Filter relay on. If you can tell us more about how the pump is wired, it might make more sense.

Jim R.

 

[LightlyToasted]

Lightly,

The answer to your direct question is yes, you can use just the flow sensor to control the output of the SWG, a number of people here do it that way. I am not one of them, however, and like the idea of having the pump/filter relay in the circuit.

That said, there is something wrong with your set up logic, but I can't quite put my finger on it. You only have one pump, so I don't understand how your pump is running without the pump/filter relay being on???

Just so that we are both on the same page.. The pump should be getting 220 volt power at all times, which is not routed through any relays. The pump should be controlled by the serial cable connected between the pump and the Easytouch. You just have to tell the pump what speed to run for your option 1 and option 2. The pump/filter relay should be on anytime the pump is on. Basically you would set the pump to run at say 1200 (low RPM) and then set a feature to run at 1800 (Med RPM). Anytime the feature was off the pump would be running at 1200. Anytime the feature was on, the pump would be running at 1800.

Sorry I can't be more specific as I can't envision how you can have your pump running without the Pump/Filter relay on. If you can tell us more about how the pump is wired, it might make more sense.

Jim R.

Thanks everyone for your replies! Much appreciated.

The filter pump circuit does indeed turn the pump on to a specified speed, turn the heater on up to a set point, and turn the filter pump relay on which turns the SCG on. You can also program any other AUX or Feature circuit to run the pump at a certain speed, but that will not operate the filter pump relay (I wish it did!). Therefore, if the SCG is wired to that relay, it won't be operative for AUX or Feature circuits.

To confirm what you said, my pump is wired to 240V at all times (contrary to the insistence of the PB tech, who wanted it wired to the pump/filter relay also!). The pump is controlled by the serial cable, and programmed for specific speeds for 1. and 2. Contrary to your statement, the filter pump relay is NOT on any time the pump is on (again, I wish it were), only if the filter pump circuit is on.

I really would like the safety of the filter pump relay controlling the SCG, but I don't see any way to do that and have the SCG on without also being forced to heat the pool by using the filter pump circuit.

 

[chiefwej]

Being a firefighter for many years, I have seen way too many failures with disastrous results.


The flow switch on a SWG is there as a safety device, it was never intended to be the primary switching control. If you have the device powered with no water flow and that flow switch fails it can result in an explosion.

When I installed a new VS pump that is controlled by its own onboard timer/speed control, it required power applied at all times. So I simply moved the power supply for the pump from the switched side of the old Intermatic timer to the hot side, and left the SWG on the switched side. Now the SWG is still controlled by a timer I set for a time when the pump is programmed to be running. Should the timers get out of sync, well that's what the safety (flow) switch is there for.
It's like having a belt and suspenders. Redundant, but when the result of failure is explosion......

Look at a domestic water heater. The gas is controlled by a thermostat. Then as a safety there is a high limit switch to shut it down if the thermostat fails. Then if the gas valve isn't shut down by either of those, there is a pressure release valve. A lot of redundancy, but then a water heater exploding would go right through your roof (even if it's in a basement with two stories above) and an additional 50 or so feet in the air.

You should never bypass safety systems, and safety switches shouldn't be used as primary controls. So what ever it takes, a SWG should only receive power when the circulation pump is running.

 

[LightlyToasted]

The flow switch on a SWG is there as a safety device, it was never intended to be the primary switching control. If you have the device powered with no water flow and that flow switch fails it can result in an explosion.

For my understanding, it would be generating chlorine gas with nowhere for it to go, potentially resulting in a hazardous pressure?

When I installed a new VS pump that is controlled by its own onboard timer/speed control, it required power applied at all times. So I simply moved the power supply for the pump from the switched side of the old Intermatic timer to the hot side, and left the SWG on the switched side. Now the SWG is still controlled by a timer I set for a time when the pump is programmed to be running. Should the timers get out of sync, well that's what the safety (flow) switch is there for.
It's like having a belt and suspenders. Redundant, but when the result of failure is explosion......

Look at a domestic water heater. The gas is controlled by a thermostat. Then as a safety there is a high limit switch to shut it down if the thermostat fails. Then if the gas valve isn't shut down by either of those, there is a pressure release valve. A lot of redundancy, but then a water heater exploding would go right through your roof (even if it's in a basement with two stories above) and an additional 50 or so feet in the air.

You should never bypass safety systems, and safety switches shouldn't be used as primary controls. So what ever it takes, a SWG should only receive power when the circulation pump is running.

I care deeply about the safety of myself and my family, and I also care about wiring and configuring the system properly. As you've described (as as the EasyTouch manual and warning stickers advise), wiring the SCG to the filter pump relay is required an extra safeguard to ensure the SCG is not energized if there is no water flow. Now that I understand that the SCG flow meter is a safety device, I have no intention of relying upon it solely. Thanks for the explanation and safety advice.

OK, so directly powering the SCG is not an option. Is there any other way to configure the EasyTouch to run the pump and SCG without the heater? As far as I can tell the only programmable temperature control applies only to the "filter pump" circuit configured for "MASTER POOL" function. Seems the only options would be:
a) see if there's a way to energize the filter pump relay (so the SCG runs) when a feature circuit is active - perhaps I'll call Pentair to see if that's a possibility in the EasyTouch firmware
b) see if there's a way to disconnect the heater when a Feature or AUX circuit is active (i.e. heater = "filter pump circuit relay" OR "AUX circuit relay")

It seems to me that the "filter pump" circuit is somewhat misnamed, as it also implies heating control. But as others have noted the EasyTouch programming is confusing (even to me - I'm a software developer), and the manuals are poorly written.

 

[LightlyToasted]

OK, so directly powering the SCG is not an option. Is there any other way to configure the EasyTouch to run the pump and SCG without the heater? As far as I can tell the only programmable temperature control applies only to the "filter pump" circuit configured for "MASTER POOL" function. Seems the only options would be:
a) see if there's a way to energize the filter pump relay (so the SCG runs) when a feature circuit is active - perhaps I'll call Pentair to see if that's a possibility in the EasyTouch firmware
b) see if there's a way to disconnect the heater when a Feature or AUX circuit is active (i.e. heater = "filter pump circuit relay" OR "AUX circuit relay")

Actually, b) is already true - the heater is not active when a Feature or AUX circuit is active. I guess what I'd actually want is:
c) see if there's a way to turn on the SCG when a feature circuit is active (i.e. SCG = "filter pump circuit relay" OR "AUX circuit relay")

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lightly,

What I don't know about the Easytouch would fill volumes, but what I do know is that all three of my Easytouch systems work the same way and on all three of them, the Pump/Filter relay is on anytime my pump is running. Each one runs at low speed and then, depending on which feature circuit I turn on, the speed will change to what I want. At no time does the pump/filter relay turn off unless I stop the pump.

I wish I was smart enough to pinpoint what is wrong, but sadly, that is not the case. When I get home tonight, I'll play around with my system and see if I can figure out why mine works and yours does not.

One thought comes to mind... I installed two systems and the PB originally installed the Easytouch at my house. On the systems that I installed, the Pump/Filter relay is the first relay on the left. When I looked at the panel at my house, it was wired so that the Pump/Filter relay was the 2nd relay from the left. I said "It is wired wrong" but found that it worked correctly. Turns out you can make any one of the relays the Pump/Filter relay, it just depends on where you connect the coil wiring on the PCB. So maybe, what you think is the Pump/Filter relay is not... Would only take a minute to double check.

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lightly,

When I select "Settings", "Intelliflo", "Pump #1", then "speeds", I get the following:

Pump #1 : 1/8
RPM : 1400
Circuits : Pool...... If I push the "up" button I get

Pump #1 : 2/8
RPM : 1800
Circuit : Feature 1..... Push the up button again and I get

Pump #1 : 3/8
RPM : 2600
Circuit : Feature 2..... And again...

Pump #1 : 4/8
RPM : 2600
Circuit : Waterfall .... etc..

Do you get something similar to this?

Jim R.

 

[LightlyToasted]

... the Pump/Filter relay is on anytime my pump is running. Each one runs at low speed and then, depending on which feature circuit I turn on, the speed will change to what I want. At no time does the pump/filter relay turn off unless I stop the pump.

I have confirmed on my system that the filter pump relay is on only when the SPA or POOL circuit is on. I suspect what you may have programmed is a schedule for the POOL circuit to come on, and an overlapping schedule for other feature circuits which would increase the pump speed. I.e. the only reason the filter pump relay was on was because the POOL circuit was on, not because the feature circuit was on. To illustrate, try this: ensure the SPA or POOL circuit is off, then turn on a feature circuit which you have programmed for a pump speed. I think you'll find that the pump does indeed come on at that speed, but the filter pump relay remains off.

 

[LightlyToasted]

Problem solved! I called Pentair support today, and the technician was able to solve my problem in 2 minutes.

He confirmed that the only way that the filter pump relay is on is if either the POOL or SPA circuit is on. The POOL and SPA (if used) circuit must always have a pump speed programmed for it. The POOL and SPA circuit may optionally have a programmed heat source and set temperature. Feature and AUX keys cannot have heat programming, and cannot operate the filter pump relay.

My original problem was how to have the pump on, the filter pump relay on (so the SCG runs), but not be forced to heat the pool. The solution he suggested, which I have confirmed works, is as follows. Since I have only a pool and no spa (and therefore don't have the pool / spa valves), I can use my SPA circuit as an additional pool circuit. He suggested I use:

• POOL circuit when I want to run the pump and SCG with no heat - either remove the heat programming for this circuit altogether or adjust the set temperature very low so that the heater doesn't come on
• SPA circuit when I want to run the pump and SCG with heat.

This works. Note that I have renamed "AUX 7" to "HIGH SPEED", which I use for vacuuming. If POOL or SPA is on, pressing the 7 button will increase the pump speed and leave the filter pump relay on. Pressing 7 when POOL and SPA are off will run the pump at a high speed and leave the filter pump relay off.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I have confirmed on my system that the filter pump relay is on only when the SPA or POOL circuit is on. I suspect what you may have programmed is a schedule for the POOL circuit to come on, and an overlapping schedule for other feature circuits which would increase the pump speed. I.e. the only reason the filter pump relay was on was because the POOL circuit was on, not because the feature circuit was on. To illustrate, try this: ensure the SPA or POOL circuit is off, then turn on a feature circuit which you have programmed for a pump speed. I think you'll find that the pump does indeed come on at that speed, but the filter pump relay remains off.

That's how my panel works. I have a feature circuit setup called "HIGH SPEED" that runs the VS pump at max (3450rpm). If I push the button when the POOL circuit is not on, it runs the pump at full speed but nothing else gets energized (IC40 or MasterTemp).

This is intentionally designed by Pentair. They tie all the basic functions (heater, solar, SWG) into the pump relay to make sure that you can't accidentally activate things without the pump running.


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[LightlyToasted]

Throughout this exercise, here's what I've learned about circuits on my EasyTouch 4:

Circuit(s):	relay?	key on control panel?	can control pump speed?	can control heat?
SPA	Filter Pump	F / V	yes	yes
POOL	Filter Pump	F / V	yes	yes
AUX1 - AUX3	AUX1 - AUX3	1-3	yes	no
AUX4 - AUX6	no	inoperative	yes	no
AUX7	AUX7	7 (key only, no LED)	yes	no
FEATURE1 - FEATURE8	no	no - activated via feature circuit menu	yes	no
AUX EXTRA	no	SOLAR (if solar heater not present)	yes	no

 

[Jimrahbe]

Glad you got it figured out.

Jim R.

 

[LightlyToasted]

Please let us know how you solved this issue so that others that have the same problem might learn from your efforts.

See post #11 above.

 

[LightlyToasted]

Many thanks to all who contributed. This was my first thread in the forums - hope it has contributed to the knowledge of EasyTouch programming.

 

[LightlyToasted]

One more thing to watch out for. The POOL circuit and SPA circuit have different settings for the SCG which you cannot set individually. For example, if I set the SCG for the POOL circuit to 50%, it automatically sets the SCG to 2% for the SPA circuit. Therefore make sure you run the POOL circuit long enough to get the chlorination you want.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

One more thing to watch out for. The POOL circuit and SPA circuit have different settings for the SCG which you cannot set individually. For example, if I set the SCG for the POOL circuit to 50%, it automatically sets the SCG to 2% for the SPA circuit. Therefore make sure you run the POOL circuit long enough to get the chlorination you want.

That's a known safety feature for people with EasyTouch systems and attached spa's. The SWG is commanded to run at 1/20th the output since spa volumes are so low. If that feature did not exist, folks would forget to turn down their SWG output when in their spas and get sickened from excess chlorine exposure. I actually really appreciate that bit of automation but can see how it is useless to have in your situation.

I'm curious as to why you have a two water body EasyTouch automation panel? Pentair makes automation panels for single water bodies and I believe they're less expensive.


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[bdavis466]

If you have screenlogic, you can adjust the SWG percentages separately. I run my pool at 80% (right now) and the spa at 10%. I found with the lower spa percentage settings, I wasn't able to get enough chlorine in the spa and begun to get that chloramine odor.

Programming the Easytouch with Screenlogic is NIGHT and DAY easier than without. I highly recommend it.

As for the heater issue, the wiring from the panel to the fireman's switch should not allow the heater be on without also having the heat command on. Did you not wire yours this way?

I have a heater bypass on my setup that was very troublesome to program. The solution that I came up with was to power an aux circuit off of the filter pump relay and assign my bypass valve to that aux circuit. The heater can not be on without the pump being on or without the bypass valve open to the heater. You could set yours up in a similar fashion. This works great for my situation; its unfortunate that the Easytouch really lacks when customization is required.