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Thread: Pool calculator discussion

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    Skitch's Avatar
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    Pool calculator discussion

    Why use poolcalculator dotcom when there's a link to Pool Math at the top of this page?





    moderator Note - this side discussion was moved out of this thread Straddling the BBB conversion...
    18k gal AG Sand Filter K-2006

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
    Why use poolcalculator dotcom when there's a link to Pool Math at the top of this page?
    The poolcaculator correctly reports the required mustard algae shock level for high CA levels. When I first arrived at TFP with CYA 300 and mustard algae, I was confused by Pool Math's error.
    20' x 40' 30,000 gallon IG Plaster with Spa, wading pool, fountain built 1993
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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by CA92807 View Post
    The poolcaculator correctly reports the required mustard algae shock level for high CA levels. When I first arrived at TFP with CYA 300 and mustard algae, I was confused by Pool Math's error.
    I'm confused by that statement. Could you explain? Maybe with example?
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by pabeader View Post
    I'm confused by that statement. Could you explain? Maybe with example?
    Open PoolMath with normal values and set CYA to 300. Look at Mustard Shock Level and you will see 15. If you mouse over this field, the value helper correctly shows 154, but my first visits to Pool Math really confused me. I had CYA 300, was using pucks, test strips and looking for help. Eventually I struggled through, took some Pool School lessons and now my pool is trouble free. I reported the PoolMath bug a few months ago but was told bogus results weren't worth discussing.
    20' x 40' 30,000 gallon IG Plaster with Spa, wading pool, fountain built 1993
    Pentair 011018 IntelliFlo / 2HP fountain pump / 2 HP spa jet punp / Jandy Ji8000 controller with IntelliComm II interface to IntelliFlo
    Crystal Water Aqua Clean 60 Sq ft DE filter / FlowVis Flow / Stenner DIY Chlorinator / The Poolcleaner 4-wheel / Taylor K-2006

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    I believe the pool calculator website is out of date and no longer being actively maintained. So there are errors in using that.

    As for PoolMath, I think what you have to understand is that PoolMath does the ACTUAL mathematical calculations based on a lot of the equations that were developed by chemgeek and JasonLion as opposed to the pool calculator website which uses look up tables. PoolMath's results are accurate within reasonable limits. A CYA of 300ppm is not reasonable and is something that has to be addressed by drain and refill regardless of the presence of algae. The reason being is that the FC levels needed for a CYA of 300ppm are astronomical and would require a person to add many, many gallons of bleach into the water and maintaining that level would be difficult. Not only would that be difficult from a logistical perspective, but there would be no accurate way to test FC levels that high and the excess lye and salt added by using that much bleach would seriously impact other water values like pH.

    So asking PoolMath to calculate a shock level FC for a 300ppm CYA is just not reasonable. Perhaps the solution is to change PoolMath so that values of CYA above 150ppm just instruct the user to drain and refill.
    Matt
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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Joyful - I second that idea!
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Ive been using pool calculator. I thought they were the same.

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    When I first arrived at TFP (via an outside link to PoolMath) a year ago having a weekly pool service, advice from a pool store, CYA 300 and ongoing problems with mustard algae I was looking for a solution. I had no idea what was wrong. When I plugged my pool's numbers in, I got a shock value of FC 15 that seemed reasonable to me. Shock is what you do when you have a problem. If it had displayed the correct value I wouldn't have even considered it. Ultimatly I was able to control but not eliminate my Mustard Algae using alternative solutions. Fortunately I discovered the main TFP site while researching VS pumps. A year later I know a lot more about running my pool and with new water and a Stenner CL pump, it's really trouble free. The TFP site has been invaluable. I don't understand the reasoning that says it's OK for PoolMath to give bad answers because the user should know better. I didn't when I first arrived.
    20' x 40' 30,000 gallon IG Plaster with Spa, wading pool, fountain built 1993
    Pentair 011018 IntelliFlo / 2HP fountain pump / 2 HP spa jet punp / Jandy Ji8000 controller with IntelliComm II interface to IntelliFlo
    Crystal Water Aqua Clean 60 Sq ft DE filter / FlowVis Flow / Stenner DIY Chlorinator / The Poolcleaner 4-wheel / Taylor K-2006

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Hench the reason for the forum. For things that don't make sense, you ask.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    I don't disagree that PoolMath should give self-consistent results - if PoolMath calculates a number in one field but then displays the wrong value in another field, then that is a bug that ought to be investigated and fixed.

    But PoolMath and the pool calculator website are different things now. TFPers should be using PoolMath as it is the most up to date in terms of calculations and available chemicals. Using the pool calculator means you are using outdated and unsupported information.

    I'm glad you eventually found TFP. Most people land at the TFP Home page not straight away at PoolMath. So if someone lands at PoolMath and starts using it without understanding where it came from, well that's a lot like a person using a table-top radial saw without knowing the first thing about woodworking - not a good idea and you're liable to lose a finger

    Perhaps this discussion will get mentioned on the moderator/admin forum so they can look into what's going on with PoolMath.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    that's a lot like a person using a table-top radial saw without knowing the first thing about woodworking - not a good idea and you're liable to lose a finger
    That is usually referred to as a RAS: radial arm saw. You'll want to use a negative hook blade on it. LOL...yes, woodworker here when I'm not in my pool!
    ----Chris----
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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Unless you're face cutting a laminate.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    I assume it's the way the field length for the box is set in PoolMath - probably truncates after two characters.

    It's a typical programming bug (breakdown at unanticipated boundary conditions). Such bugs, hopefully, should be fixed when noticed, although that would depend on when the person/people maintaining the program have time to fiddle with it. I sure hope no one is defending this quirk as a feature, or saying it's just fine as is. JoyfulNoise's suggestion (end of post #5) seems like a good one.
    18' x 48" ring top pool (Summer Escapes); 5500 gallons; set up June - October, stored during winter; Intex 2500 gph pump (B size cartridge filter) Hayward 21" sand filter + 1.5 hp single speed Powerflo Matrix pump (upgrade October 2016) *** K-2006 test kit, refills from tftestkits

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    So we have a third!! The motion carries...
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Perhaps this discussion will get mentioned on the moderator/admin forum so they can look into what's going on with PoolMath.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This "issue" has been known for a few month's now. I'm hoping to be able to address this in the future next time we update PoolMath. When that will be, I'm not sure of, but it is on a "to-do" list.

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I believe the pool calculator website is out of date and no longer being actively maintained. So there are errors in using that.

    As for PoolMath, I think what you have to understand is that PoolMath does the ACTUAL mathematical calculations based on a lot of the equations that were developed by chemgeek and JasonLion as opposed to the pool calculator website which uses look up tables. PoolMath's results are accurate within reasonable limits.
    Actually, both calculators use a combination of techniques depending on the calculation. PoolMath did continue to get updated so has a few changes/improvements, but I don't think there is anything radical such as moving from lookups to exact calculations. Basically, exact calculations were always done where it was easy to do and lookups were done where such calculations were not easy, such as pH.

    For me right now PoolMath doesn't truncate to "15" and is showing "154" (so maybe this is browser/OS specific) but the actual value for yellow/mustard algae shock level would be closer to 169, but the CYA level is so high that such FC levels aren't realistic. Also, at such high FC levels, the chlorine bound to CYA needs to be taken into account and we don't know enough about its weak ability to kill algae (if any). We know there is a low oxidizing capability less than 1/150th that of hypochlorous acid.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    It's not truncating the value, only its display. If you doubleclick the value, copy and then paste into a text editor you'll see the whole value. So it's simply the size of the text box that has been fixed at a too narrow width.

    Adjusting the size of the text box should be an easy fix.
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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    The correct number is actually there, the cell it's in just isn't big enough to display the whole thing. You can see the number by hovering over and looking at the Detail box to the right of Temperature.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    Size parameters need increased, starting at line 1341. I recommend 3,3,3,5,5.

    Code:
    <nobr>SWG:<INPUT type=text name="SUGFCswg" size=2 value="2" readonly class=ClassSUG onmouseover="StatusSUG('SWG',document.F.SUGFCswg.value);" onfocus="StatusSUG('SWG',document.F.SUGFCswg.value);"></nobr>
    <nobr>Normal:<INPUT type=text name="SUGFCmin" size=2 value="3" readonly class=ClassSUG onmouseover="StatusSUG('Minimum',document.F.SUGFCmin.value);" onfocus="StatusSUG('Minimum',document.F.SUGFCmin.value);">
    to <INPUT type=text name="SUGFCtarg" size=2 value="6" readonly class=ClassSUG onmouseover="StatusSUG('Maximum',document.F.SUGFCtarg.value);" onfocus="StatusSUG('Maximum',document.F.SUGFCtarg.value);"></nobr>
    <nobr>Shock:<INPUT type=text name="SUGFCshock" size=2 value="15" readonly class=ClassSUG onmouseover="StatusSUG('Shock',document.F.SUGFCshock.value);" onfocus="StatusSUG('Shock',document.F.SUGFCshock.value);"></nobr>
    <nobr>Mustard Algae Shock:<INPUT type=text name="SUGFCmust" size=2 value="24" readonly class=ClassSUG onmouseover="StatusSUG('Mustard Algae Shock',document.F.SUGFCmust.value);" onfocus="StatusSUG('Mustard Algae Shock',document.F.SUGFCmust.value);"></nobr><br>
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: Pool calculator discussion

    This issue has been updated and fixed. Thanks Skitch for pointing this out to us.

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