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Thread: Help going TFPC for next season

  1. Back To Top    #1
    JayG's Avatar
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    Help going TFPC for next season

    Hi All, I introduced myself here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...Westchester-NY

    I'm working towards ditching my pool service for next season (just bought the house and will finish out the existing contract in a couple of weeks). I have a couple of changes I'd like to implement and a couple of questions.

    Changes:
    1. Replace single speed Hayward pump (says 2hp in my sig, but its 1.5 hp actually...need to fix that) with a variable or 2-speed pump.
    2. Add a heat pump for maintaining 80F temp during the season. I currently have a 400k BTU propane heater in the system. I have room on the pad to add the heat pump and keep the propane heater.
    3. Find a way to add chlorine through either a SWG or Stenner pump.
    My questions:

    1. Do I need automation to integrate the pump with the heating options? Currently, the previous owners had a single speed super pump II running 24/7. If I start playing with a variable speed pump, it seems I now need to think about how to activate the pump when the heater kicks on (or the SWG if I go that route). Does it make sense to get a larger pump that can loaf along in low speed and maintain a flow of 30-40 gpm? If I ran such a pump 24/7 at such flow rates I'd get a full turnover daily. I think that flow rate would be sufficient for most SWG and heaters, yes? If so, I could just have the heaters or SWG system kick in when they felt the need. It seems there are some advantages of running the pump on high for a few hours to improve skimmer efficiency. No reason not to do that, but if I drop flow during other times less than 30-40 gpm, then I need to have the heaters or SWG be able to "talk" to the pump I'm sure that is trivial, but I don't know what would be involved.

    2. Is there any trick to making a propane heater and a heat pump play "nice" together to share the load? I figure the propane heater would be used in the early season to get the pool up to temp and the heat pump to maintain. Is there any consensus about heat pump brands? Or how I should size the heat pump?

    3. I'm on the fence about SWG versus Stenner. I'm exploring options. See my crazy Stenner post (scroll to bottom): http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...es-2015/page18

    Thanks!

    Jay
    Last edited by JayG; 09-08-2015 at 07:35 PM. Reason: clarity
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Agent99's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    (1) It depends on how you wish to control things. Automation can certainly make things easier and you wouldn't have to run the pump 24/7 (which seems silly and wasteful to my ears). Intermatic has such control timers as well as the major pool vendors like Pentair and Hayward having their own automation panels. SWG can work just fine on low flow rates which a VS pump can provide however a heater must have a minimum flow rate and that will be dependent upon the heater--consult the manual. With automation, you can do things like running a VS pump on high for a couple hours to improve skimmer skimming and then run it really low to continue with chlorine generation from your salt cell and at the same time, ensure that when the heater decides to kick on, that the flow rate is also adequate for that scenario. When that happens, flow rate increases for example, it might be nice to turn the SWG down. So there is a lot to consider and think about here depending on which way you go.

    (2) You might be able to automate this but it seems to me that manual might be easier. Either the propane heater is on or the heat pump is on. Your system would only care to the point that it knows that some form of heat is now on and to act accordingly to a program or whatever. You might plumb it so that it is one or the other with a 3-way valve that is turned manually. I don't know anything about heat pumps for a pool.

    (3) How about The Liquidator? I'm using that as my chlorine injector. It's been up and running for 2 months now and I like it quite a bit. I still kick around SWG but so far I haven't convinced myself to pull the trigger.
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

  3. Back To Top    #3
    JayG's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent99 View Post
    (1) It depends on how you wish to control things. Automation can certainly make things easier and you wouldn't have to run the pump 24/7 (which seems silly and wasteful to my ears). Intermatic has such control timers as well as the major pool vendors like Pentair and Hayward having their own automation panels. SWG can work just fine on low flow rates which a VS pump can provide however a heater must have a minimum flow rate and that will be dependent upon the heater--consult the manual. With automation, you can do things like running a VS pump on high for a couple hours to improve skimmer skimming and then run it really low to continue with chlorine generation from your salt cell and at the same time, ensure that when the heater decides to kick on, that the flow rate is also adequate for that scenario. When that happens, flow rate increases for example, it might be nice to turn the SWG down. So there is a lot to consider and think about here depending on which way you go.

    (2) You might be able to automate this but it seems to me that manual might be easier. Either the propane heater is on or the heat pump is on. Your system would only care to the point that it knows that some form of heat is now on and to act accordingly to a program or whatever. You might plumb it so that it is one or the other with a 3-way valve that is turned manually. I don't know anything about heat pumps for a pool.

    (3) How about The Liquidator? I'm using that as my chlorine injector. It's been up and running for 2 months now and I like it quite a bit. I still kick around SWG but so far I haven't convinced myself to pull the trigger.
    Thanks! Very helpful. Not straightforward to integrate all these systems! I get not running a pump 24/7 but the previous owners have been running a single-speed 1.5 hp Hayward pump 24/7 for years. Hence, they have no provision for letting the heater talk to the pump. They said the pump would lose prime if not run 24/7 (despite a Jandy check valve). The equipment pad is located 8-10' above the pool surface, so perhaps that factors into the loss of prime. I figured that if I could install a variable speed pump that would move the minimum flow required for a heater or SWG I would still be ahead of where I am now without having to integrate everything. In this scenario, there would always be sufficient flow for these functions. They could be programmed without regard to pump speed.

    Regarding Cl injection, I need to learn more about the various options. What is clear is that if I want to adhere to CFPC protocol, I will be hauling a lot of bleach bottles to feed our 40k gallon pool. I'm looking for some convenience and am willing to pay a bit more to achieve it.

    Cheers,

    Jay
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    ozdiver's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    Jay, I have a 40k pool and am planning to integrate a Stenner setup.
    The biggest improvement I have made to the effort involved in bleaching is finding a bulk bleach supplier.
    I bought two 7 gallon containers with spigots on Amazon.
    I get them filled for about $23 every few of weeks.
    So much cheaper and fresher than any of the other options I had tried.

    Regarding the propane heater, most of those just won't fire up unless there is flow.
    So if you schedule the pump to run, it is only during this time that heater will react to lower water temp and start heating.
    The heat pump may have the same fail-safe.
    Google the documentation to get this answer.
    40k gal freeform, IG pebblesheen, 9'x'6' raised spa, 2-1/2 hp Whisperflo, 520 sq/ft cartridge, Legend w/ booster, Intellibrite 5g in pool @ spa, Rainbow 320 Chlorinator(retired),
    Mastertemp 400k BTU, 3x3 hp Whisperflo Swimjets, 2x2 hp Whisperflow for 15ton moss rock waterfall, Intelitouch Controller, 850 sq/ft Travertine deck, Gas/Wood firepit,
    Autofill, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JayG's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by ozdiver View Post
    Jay, I have a 40k pool and am planning to integrate a Stenner setup.
    The biggest improvement I have made to the effort involved in bleaching is finding a bulk bleach supplier.
    I bought two 7 gallon containers with spigots on Amazon.
    I get them filled for about $23 every few of weeks.
    So much cheaper and fresher than any of the other options I had tried.

    Regarding the propane heater, most of those just won't fire up unless there is flow.
    So if you schedule the pump to run, it is only during this time that heater will react to lower water temp and start heating.
    The heat pump may have the same fail-safe.
    Google the documentation to get this answer.
    Thanks! I'm going to do this bit by bit. My first problem is that my CYA is >120 so I need to drain and refill before next season. I will replace the single speed pump next season and play with flow rates. I will also convert from pucks to liquid bleach to get a sense of how much demand our pool will require to keep FC up. Then I can decide on whether to go Stenner or SWG. I've looked into controller systems Not as complicated as I imagined.

    Cheers,

    Jay
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Agent99's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    Please update the thread with what you do in regards to automation...very curious myself.
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

  7. Back To Top    #7
    JayG's Avatar
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    Re: Help going TFPC for next season

    Will do!

    Jay
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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