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Thread: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Long story short, the sand in my filtering system was recently replaced with recycled/treated glass carrying two key maintenance instructions to comply with the manufacturer's lifetime guarantee:

    1) At a minimum, backwash/rinse when originating psi increases by 8-10 psi
    2) Monthly use of their eco-friendly stabilizer/water conditioner (which replaces "standard" chlorine stabilizers)

    Before beginning the TFPC method conversion, I have always followed the pool supply store's cardinal rule: Weekly backwashing/rinse during the hotter months (May - October), bi-weekly during transitional months (November and April), monthly during what is typically a period of light freezing (December - March).

    The idea with using the new glass media was to be able to conserve fresh water and minimize the impact of its high copper and calcium content. Would it be safe to go by the manufacturer's guidelines using the TPFC method?

    Disclaimer: I am not a representative of this product, just a new TFPC convert "in process," and the first to use this line in my area.
    Last edited by Jumpin' Joan; 09-07-2015 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Forgot to post the question... oops!
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    TFP recommends only backwashing when the pressure rises 20-25% over the clean pressure. No reason to do it on a schedule and waiting 8-10psi rise is likely too long.

    Also, stabilizer does not typically need to be added but once a season.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    I'd be real interested in seeing the labeling on their "Eco-friendly conditioner" that is supposed to replace the standard conditioner/stabilizer, cyanuric acid (CYA). It sounds like bogus attempt to make you buy their exclusive product in order to maintain a warranty on something that doesn't need a warranty, ie, sand filter media.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    TFP recommends only backwashing when the pressure rises 20-25% over the clean pressure. No reason to do it on a schedule and waiting 8-10psi rise is likely too long.

    Also, stabilizer does not typically need to be added but once a season.
    Thanks, Jason.

    That's a much more reasonable guideline and it'll save a lot of water too, the latter of which is why I agreed to try this new filter media in the first place.

    As for the new stabilizer, I'm just following the mandated guidelines until I get more knowledgeable about the entire TPFC method. What I do like about it though is that it eliminates the need for cyanuric acid and "works by amplifying the energy of the sun, boosting natural photo-oxidation from UV light without forming combined chlorine or harmful by-products." Time will tell.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I'd be real interested in seeing the labeling on their "Eco-friendly conditioner" that is supposed to replace the standard conditioner/stabilizer, cyanuric acid (CYA). It sounds like bogus attempt to make you buy their exclusive product in order to maintain a warranty on something that doesn't need a warranty, ie, sand filter media.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hi Matt ~

    Not sure if this product line is snake oil or not yet but the media is definitely not sand... it's a "recycled glass that goes through a patented process of decontamination, sterilization, shaping and activation to attract and capture bacteria and algae while preventing the formation of biofilm." What I also like about the system is that it's designed to lower chemical consumption despite the need for monthly application of their complementing stabilizer which, in short, replaces cyanuric acid. Only time will tell.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpin' Joan View Post
    As for the new stabilizer, I'm just following the mandated guidelines until I get more knowledgeable about the entire TPFC method. What I do like about it though is that it eliminates the need for cyanuric acid and "works by amplifying the energy of the sun, boosting natural photo-oxidation from UV light without forming combined chlorine or harmful by-products." Time will tell.
    This sounds like a voodoo magic potion to me.

    Sand is basically glass. Generally from what we have seen, nothing works better than plain old sand ... which does not "wear out" either. And certainly no filter media is going to magically change the chemical consumption.

    Again, there is no need to add cyanuric acid monthly. It is not really a consumable. and it has NOTHING to do with a filter.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Joan,

    I'd like to start off by asking what PSI your filters runs at after you backflush? As Jason suggested, we generally suggest backflushing only after it increases 20-25% over the clean PSI.

    As for the " eco-friendly stabilizer/water conditioner".........
    I am still looking for the MSDS on this product, however my gut is SCREAMING garbage! So far all I've found about it is that it runs about $40 (From this site, it maybe cheaper) a gallon and MUST be used monthly regardless of any other issues or lack there of. That right there screams scam to me. Why MUST you add a product (besides chlorine) if your pool is clean? There simply isn't any logic to add more than you need to. If I may, I'd suggest that you read up on the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry to help you out. I'm greatly afraid that you're spending a large amount of money extra that you simply don't need to in order to avoid the copper/calcium in your water. I'd also like to request three quick things from you that will GREATLY help us out,

    • As soon as you get your TF-100 post your results. This will help you out more than anything as we can tailor some assistance for you.
    • Can you take a look at the label of the "Enhance Summer." Do you see anything that looks like a list of ingredients? If so, can you take a photo of it and post it here.
    • While you've got your camera out......take a photo of your water and post it. This allows us to start to get an idea of your water's condition and what likely needs to be done.

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    This sounds like a voodoo magic potion to me.

    Sand is basically glass. Generally from what we have seen, nothing works better than plain old sand ... which does not "wear out" either. And certainly no filter media is going to magically change the chemical consumption.

    Again, there is no need to add cyanuric acid monthly. It is not really a consumable. and it has NOTHING to do with a filter.
    Regarding sand is basically glass... yes and no. They're certainly not created equal. You might find this link eye opening, check page 7.
    http://www.drydenaquapools.com/downl...DAISY_EN_M.pdf

    Being a bit skeptical myself, I kept the search going. It appears the voodoo magic potion could have more value than one might think at first blush. If ACO is the same as what's being marketed in the US as Enhance Summer (and I have an email out to their research department to verify along with a few other questions), its a catalyst for their glass filter media and is a mixture of poly silicates and metal oxides. Interesting.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    Joan,

    I'd like to start off by asking what PSI your filters runs at after you backflush? As Jason suggested, we generally suggest backflushing only after it increases 20-25% over the clean PSI.

    As for the " eco-friendly stabilizer/water conditioner".........
    I am still looking for the MSDS on this product, however my gut is SCREAMING garbage! So far all I've found about it is that it runs about $40 (From this site, it maybe cheaper) a gallon and MUST be used monthly regardless of any other issues or lack there of. That right there screams scam to me. Why MUST you add a product (besides chlorine) if your pool is clean? There simply isn't any logic to add more than you need to. If I may, I'd suggest that you read up on the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry to help you out. I'm greatly afraid that you're spending a large amount of money extra that you simply don't need to in order to avoid the copper/calcium in your water. I'd also like to request three quick things from you that will GREATLY help us out,

    • As soon as you get your TF-100 post your results. This will help you out more than anything as we can tailor some assistance for you.
    • Can you take a look at the label of the "Enhance Summer." Do you see anything that looks like a list of ingredients? If so, can you take a photo of it and post it here.
    • While you've got your camera out......take a photo of your water and post it. This allows us to start to get an idea of your water's condition and what likely needs to be done.
    Great feedback, Lee!

    The filter's gage at origination read 15psi. Since August 19th, it only changed to a high of 17psi and was quick to return to original status after the first backwash.

    And I owe a debt of gratitude to you for inspiring me to keep looking for information to back up that product line's sell sheets. Oh yes, it's a pricey little additive but I'm starting to realize its unexpected value, especially when used with their glass filter media.

    As I just mentioned to Jason, this website carries tons of information if you're inclined to pursue it. The ACO data is on page 11. http://www.drydenaquapools.com/downl...DAISY_EN_M.pdf

    In brief, if ACO is the same as what's being marketed in the US as Enhance Summer (and I have an email out to their UK based research and development department to verify along with a few other questions including does it register as a stabilizer on a comprehensive water test), its a catalyst for their glass filter media and is a mixture of poly silicates and metal oxides. Interesting. Even more interesting that the bottle doesn't carry any listing of ingredients so a photo of the packaging is useless.

    The ABC's are under my belt now which made understanding the pdf I linked here a lot easier to absorb. (No pun intended.) I won't stop there though. I'm in Pool School until (and likely beyond for quite awhile) the TF-100 and its little spinner arrives at the end of this week or so. Then it's play, play, play. I'll post the stats when I'm at least a bit sure I'm doing it right and I'll also post photos of the pool... probably under my original 'Straddle' thread (just to keep things in order).

    Lastly, thanks for encouraging me to open this thread.
    Last edited by Jumpin' Joan; 09-07-2015 at 11:50 PM. Reason: error note on pdf link
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    The Enhance Summer is probably the same as ACO, but why are you concerned about this? While this product makes sense to use in high bather-load pools and ACO is used in some such commercial/public pools in Europe, why do you care about this for your residential pool that is very low in bather-load? You simply won't have the combined chlorine (CC) issues associated with high bather-load pools especially those indoors. An outdoor residential pool using the proper FC/CYA levels for chlorine won't have enough disinfection by-products to justify anything other than chlorine. No ACO or Enhance Summer, no algaecides, no phosphate removes, no clarifiers, no flocculants, no enzymes, etc.

    If you were to properly use the entire Dryden Aqua Integrated System (DAISY), you would also need to use clarifier/flocculant (APF/ZPM) in your pool as well, but again that isn't necessary because you simply won't be adding enough organics to your pool water to justify needing to add anything additional. My pool is shown in this link and that clarity is from chlorine alone. We have over 90,000 registered members of this forum and nearly half a million visitors per month during peak swim season and pools using TFPC have exceptional clarity using chlorine alone. The active chlorine level at the minimum FC/CYA levels we recommend is the same as in a pool with only 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA. Dryden's system is more commonly used in European pools using the DIN 19643 standard and that does not use CYA and really can't because flocculants such as iron or alum are required and activated carbon is used to remove disinfection by-products.

    As for the "eco-friendly stabilizer/water conditioner", if that is what I think it is, it's not like CYA and instead is likely titanium dioxide (see this link on ACO that is "a mixture of poly silicates and metal oxides") which while shielding lower depths from UV in sunlight, it does NOT moderate chlorine's strength so there is no way you could get the equivalent of only 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA in the water. You simply could not maintain such a low chlorine level everywhere in the pool because you do not have nearly the circulation and pumping capabilities to do so. Again, this makes more sense in DIN 19643 systems that cannot use CYA because they flocculate organics and more importantly they remove ALL chlorine in every circulation pass in the activated carbon and have to add chlorine back in. Even with DIN 19643, most pools have trouble maintaining much below 0.5 ppm FC and that's in pools designed with fast turnovers and great circulation. You really can't mix parts of a system and again shouldn't be using a commercial/public pool system for a residential pool unless you are incredibly wealthy and don't care about spending money on unnecessary products.

    Also, the hydroxyl radicals produced from ACO are also produced when chlorine breaks down from sunlight so AGAIN while having more such hydroxyl radicals can be helpful in high bather-load pools since there are far more organics present, it doesn't make sense in low bather-load pools such as residential pools that are outdoors and already producing enough hydroxyl radicals to keep the water in outstanding condition. By using ACO instead of CYA you not only are producing an excessive amount of very powerful oxidizers, but are not moderating chlorine's strength and both of these will oxidize your swimsuits, skin, and hair much faster. Why on Earth would you want to do that?
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    This thread is a good reason why you should not mix the TFPC Method of pool maintenance with other methods. If you put chlorine in water with little or no CYA and you add another chemical on top of that which creates strong oxidizers, you can easily sicken yourself.

    It's ok to explore other pool care methods and it's your pool to choose what you want to do with it. There are plenty of people these days that are really into metal ion systems that use copper and silver with UV/ozone systems. That's fine too. There are certainly many ways to take care of a pool. However, mixing methods is not a good idea as it can lead to physical damage to your pool and/or your body.

    The TFPC Method is based on the sound and well-established science of chlorine disinfection and chlorine's interaction with cyanuric acid. We teach a simple and low-cost method of pool care based on the cornerstone principals of sound scientific understanding of what chemicals do in pool water and only adding chemicals that are absolutely needed. It is the lowest cost pool care method out there. Every other method of pool care is more expensive than chlorine. The TFPC Method is safe and highly effective as evidenced by the tens of thousands of members who practice this method.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    The Enhance Summer is probably the same as ACO, but why are you concerned about this? While this product makes sense to use in high bather-load pools and ACO is used in some such commercial/public pools in Europe, why do you care about this for your residential pool that is very low in bather-load? You simply won't have the combined chlorine (CC) issues associated with high bather-load pools especially those indoors. An outdoor residential pool using the proper FC/CYA levels for chlorine won't have enough disinfection by-products to justify anything other than chlorine. No ACO or Enhance Summer, no algaecides, no phosphate removes, no clarifiers, no flocculants, no enzymes, etc.

    If you were to properly use the entire Dryden Aqua Integrated System (DAISY), you would also need to use clarifier/flocculant (APF/ZPM) in your pool as well, but again that isn't necessary because you simply won't be adding enough organics to your pool water to justify needing to add anything additional. My pool is shown in this link and that clarity is from chlorine alone. We have over 90,000 registered members of this forum and nearly half a million visitors per month during peak swim season and pools using TFPC have exceptional clarity using chlorine alone. The active chlorine level at the minimum FC/CYA levels we recommend is the same as in a pool with only 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA. Dryden's system is more commonly used in European pools using the DIN 19643 standard and that does not use CYA and really can't because flocculants such as iron or alum are required and activated carbon is used to remove disinfection by-products.

    As for the "eco-friendly stabilizer/water conditioner", if that is what I think it is, it's not like CYA and instead is likely titanium dioxide (see this link on ACO that is "a mixture of poly silicates and metal oxides") which while shielding lower depths from UV in sunlight, it does NOT moderate chlorine's strength so there is no way you could get the equivalent of only 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA in the water. You simply could not maintain such a low chlorine level everywhere in the pool because you do not have nearly the circulation and pumping capabilities to do so. Again, this makes more sense in DIN 19643 systems that cannot use CYA because they flocculate organics and more importantly they remove ALL chlorine in every circulation pass in the activated carbon and have to add chlorine back in. Even with DIN 19643, most pools have trouble maintaining much below 0.5 ppm FC and that's in pools designed with fast turnovers and great circulation. You really can't mix parts of a system and again shouldn't be using a commercial/public pool system for a residential pool unless you are incredibly wealthy and don't care about spending money on unnecessary products.

    Also, the hydroxyl radicals produced from ACO are also produced when chlorine breaks down from sunlight so AGAIN while having more such hydroxyl radicals can be helpful in high bather-load pools since there are far more organics present, it doesn't make sense in low bather-load pools such as residential pools that are outdoors and already producing enough hydroxyl radicals to keep the water in outstanding condition. By using ACO instead of CYA you not only are producing an excessive amount of very powerful oxidizers, but are not moderating chlorine's strength and both of these will oxidize your swimsuits, skin, and hair much faster. Why on Earth would you want to do that?
    I can not express my appreciation for this thorough and thoughtful response other than saying thank you, chem geek!

    This information is exactly what I was trying to get from the UK research and development folks at Dryden Aqua while I prepare to knowledgeably convert to the TPFC method.

    Excessive oxidation is definitely something I want to avoid for all of the reasons you mention. I'm also looking to streamline my chemistry needs while still offsetting heavy copper and calcium fill water as well as working with a challenging environment which carries troublesome airborne particulates from wind, rain, and passing wildlife. And, I also want my TF-100 kit to work with the best input possible to adjust my pool's chemistry in an efficient and economical manner. Hence, the desire to convert to the TPFC method with confidence and persistence.

    I do not regret the switch from questionable sand sources to the Dryden Aqua filter media. Based on what I'm reading, it's a sustainable product and I am not physically capable of deep cleaning 300 lbs. of sand. That stated, what I do know about the TPFC method (which only scratches the surface at this juncture), I have no doubt it will work with that filter media without relying on the ACO/Enhanced Summer catalyst.

    At present, my CYA reading is in the 30-50ppm range (likely due to the BioGuard products still in my system) but I'll know more about the true levels once I receive and start using my TF-100 kit. That stated, I'm sure I'll have questions to post on my "Straddling" thread at a later date.

    Until then and beyond, thank you!
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: How often to backwash/rinse glass filter media...

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    This thread is a good reason why you should not mix the TFPC Method of pool maintenance with other methods. If you put chlorine in water with little or no CYA and you add another chemical on top of that which creates strong oxidizers, you can easily sicken yourself.

    It's ok to explore other pool care methods and it's your pool to choose what you want to do with it. There are plenty of people these days that are really into metal ion systems that use copper and silver with UV/ozone systems. That's fine too. There are certainly many ways to take care of a pool. However, mixing methods is not a good idea as it can lead to physical damage to your pool and/or your body.

    The TFPC Method is based on the sound and well-established science of chlorine disinfection and chlorine's interaction with cyanuric acid. We teach a simple and low-cost method of pool care based on the cornerstone principals of sound scientific understanding of what chemicals do in pool water and only adding chemicals that are absolutely needed. It is the lowest cost pool care method out there. Every other method of pool care is more expensive than chlorine. The TFPC Method is safe and highly effective as evidenced by the tens of thousands of members who practice this method.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Agreed, Matt ~ It's one of the reasons I brought up this topic.

    Originally, I just wanted to verify appropriate backwash/rinse timing to conserve water and maintain a unique filter media's effectiveness. That goal was achieved.

    I was also hoping the thread would morph into feedback on the Dryden Aqua system which Leebo advised I could ask about without the risk of being perceived as a "marketer." I don't know how fruitful this information may be for others but it's certainly provided excellent grounding for full TPFC conversion to me.

    Please trust the TPFC method conversion will begin in earnest while I continue to attend TPF Pool School and begin to use my TF-100 shortly after its arrival at the end of this week. Until then, my CYA level is supposedly in the 30-50ppm range likely due to the limited BioGuard products still in my system. (Complete fresh water refill is less than three weeks old.) That stated, I'm sure I'll have questions to post on my "Straddling" thread at a later date.

    Thanks for your support.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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