Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Waterfall Not Uniform

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Waterfall Not Uniform

    Hi,

    I had my new pool filled with water a little over a week ago, so I'm new at this and am trying to work out all the kinks. The waterfall going from my spa down to my pool isn't doing so uniformly.

    Is this type of problem a common one? I wasn't sure if it has something to do with the water level in the spa, the pressure coming from the pump driving the waterfall, the stone that the water is running down, or something else.

    Here are a few pictures. In the last one you can see that from a straight-on view, it's not noticeable...but from the side it is:








    Thanks for any advice!
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    11,600

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    If you increase the flow with either greater pump speed or the split valve for the returns biased more towards the spa return, does that resolve it?

    Also, when not running, put a carpenters level on that slate spillway to see if it is level.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  3. Back To Top    #3
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    11,600

    Waterfall Not Uniform

    Can't tell exactly from the pictures but is there a chip missing from the slate on the left edge of the top picture?

    A non-uniform and/or rounded edge will cause water to dribble over instead of peeling away.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  4. Back To Top    #4

    In the Industry

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Wildomar, California
    Posts
    423

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Having dealt with this in the past, your spillway is not level

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    11,600

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    If it's not level, then you need to contact your PB and show him your findings (pictures of waterfall and a picture of an uneven level). He then needs to get the stone masons back that did the work to remove the spillway and install a new one that is level.

    You should not have to pay anything for the work.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    I measured it with a level and it's not perfectly level, but doesn't seem to be too off (then again it was over a short distance, so maybe it is significant). Here's a picture:



    I had the PB come and look at it. He agrees there's an issue. He first suggested that I increase the water pressure. We tried that and it did help the problem, but some of the water (maybe 10% of the length of the spillway) was still not running over the spillway evenly. He agreed that it was still an issue after the water pressure increase.

    His latest suggestion is for him to send someone over to polish down a portion of the stone, so that the water flows over it better. He did say that the area that gets polished down may not look as good, but that the water running over the stone will make it imperfect anyway.

    Any thoughts? Am I being too picky? I just figured that if I paid so much money for all of this, that I should get what I paid for.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    11,600

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Quote Originally Posted by joesc230 View Post
    Any thoughts? Am I being too picky? I just figured that if I paid so much money for all of this, that I should get what I paid for.
    PRECISELY! The PB should fix it.

    In my opinion it's uneven enough to be a problem. I doubt grinding the stone will work. My opinion is its a combination of the un-leveled stone as well as the uneven edge where the water peels away.

    Did you measure both the front and back of the stone? It may not be level in several spots.




    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  8. Back To Top    #8
    smforte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Montgomery,Al
    Posts
    668

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    It may be just me but looking at the head on picture it looks slightly unlevel. I wouldn't let the PB grind anything down and mess up the stone. Beautiful pool though!
    Montgomery, AL
    27000 16 x 36 IG, Vinyl, Grecian, Hayward Sand filter, 1 HP Pentair whisperflo motor, Aqua Genie filter not by choice, no extra jets, Dolphin s300i robotic cleaner,Taylor K 2006 test kit, speed-stir which I couldn't live without!

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    PRECISELY! The PB should fix it.

    In my opinion it's uneven enough to be a problem. I doubt grinding the stone will work. My opinion is its a combination of the un-leveled stone as well as the uneven edge where the water peels away.

    Did you measure both the front and back of the stone? It may not be level in several spots.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    Yes, I measured the front and back and it is the same level reading as displayed in the picture above. Yeah, I'm worried about them grinding it. I'm also worried about them replacing the stone and damaging other areas while doing that. I guess that would be their problem though. I just don't have much faith in this PB and I'm worried about having him doing anything. I was so glad to finally be done with construction, but not having a evenly running waterfall is a real bummer.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Buckeye AZ
    Posts
    807

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    he's not grinding it. He's polishing it.
    10,500 gal IG, Topaz Pebble, auto-level
    Hayward DE filter, 2HP Ecostar VSP, ProLogic PS-4, GVA actuators
    Cal Pools Wave Force Plus (wall return jets plus 2 floor pop-ups), Venturi Skimmer
    Water sheer, 2 wok pots, bubbler stem on the baja step
    ColorLogic Mutlicolor LED lamp. Taylor 2006+speed stir

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Quote Originally Posted by smforte View Post
    It may be just me but looking at the head on picture it looks slightly unlevel. I wouldn't let the PB grind anything down and mess up the stone. Beautiful pool though!
    I think I see what you mean too - looking at it straight on, it does look slightly unlevel to me too. Now I just have to figure out if it's worth it having him replace the entire stone and risking them damaging tile, plaster, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeChris View Post
    he's not grinding it. He's polishing it.
    Right

    I thought it was interesting when he said polish.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Buckeye AZ
    Posts
    807

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    hold your finger in different spots upstream and see if any sort of minor diversion of the water evens out spill pattern. maybe something small up there will be less noticeable than a whole polished edge.

    **is that dark piece a solid piece of stone, or a poured concrete slab? If it's a stone, they could conceivably remove the stone and level the underside, not touching the top side. But they might want to drain the pool to work on something like that.
    10,500 gal IG, Topaz Pebble, auto-level
    Hayward DE filter, 2HP Ecostar VSP, ProLogic PS-4, GVA actuators
    Cal Pools Wave Force Plus (wall return jets plus 2 floor pop-ups), Venturi Skimmer
    Water sheer, 2 wok pots, bubbler stem on the baja step
    ColorLogic Mutlicolor LED lamp. Taylor 2006+speed stir

  13. Back To Top    #13

    TFP Guide


    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    1,123

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    That's really pretty though.

    I can tell it's off best by the head on picture just by the way/angle the waterfall's water is hitting the pool water. The right side water appears to hit out further than the left side does.

    It looks like the left side is back further into the tile portion than the right to me. (About the only way I can describe what I see for it to make sense is that it looks like it's kind of twisted to me).

    Looking straight down it looks like they are even, but looking at it head on, it looks quite a bit off. Although it is level from side to side see if there is the same amount of rock out from the tiles on each side because I really do think that could be the issue.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Most likely, it's just an uneven stone. It's something they should be able to fix.

    Also, notice that in the third picture, the bubbles created by the falling water hitting the pool water go much deeper on the left. There's an even slant to the bubbles. That's a good indication of the difference in water volume from left to right.

    Another thing to consider is does the water in the tub rotate?

    If yes, which direction and about how many RPM?

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Southeastern PA
    Posts
    20

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Even though it is mildly off level, that is significant enough to get fixed. Personally, I would not accept 'polishing' as an option, or even grinding. A new piece of slate properly shaped and installed should not be very difficult for a professional. You also don't want to try to compensate by increasing the water flow. That may interfere with your surface skimming if your return jets for the pool are opposite the intakes (which they should be) and the spa overflow interferes with the surface flow. Dumping too much water midway can cause an eddy effect and a deadzone where surface debris can collect.

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeChris View Post
    hold your finger in different spots upstream and see if any sort of minor diversion of the water evens out spill pattern. maybe something small up there will be less noticeable than a whole polished edge.

    **is that dark piece a solid piece of stone, or a poured concrete slab? If it's a stone, they could conceivably remove the stone and level the underside, not touching the top side. But they might want to drain the pool to work on something like that.

    Tried the idea with diverting the water with a finger and that didn't fix it. Thanks for the suggestion.

    It's a solid piece of stone. Good point - I have to find out what they'd want to do if they replace the whole thing.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Quote Originally Posted by Crackerjack4u View Post
    That's really pretty though.

    I can tell it's off best by the head on picture just by the way/angle the waterfall's water is hitting the pool water. The right side water appears to hit out further than the left side does.

    It looks like the left side is back further into the tile portion than the right to me. (About the only way I can describe what I see for it to make sense is that it looks like it's kind of twisted to me).

    Looking straight down it looks like they are even, but looking at it head on, it looks quite a bit off. Although it is level from side to side see if there is the same amount of rock out from the tiles on each side because I really do think that could be the issue.


    Yeah, I see what you mean about the way it's hitting the water. As far as the rock out goes, I measured it and looks equal between the sides.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    Most likely, it's just an uneven stone. It's something they should be able to fix.

    Also, notice that in the third picture, the bubbles created by the falling water hitting the pool water go much deeper on the left. There's an even slant to the bubbles. That's a good indication of the difference in water volume from left to right.

    Another thing to consider is does the water in the tub rotate?

    If yes, which direction and about how many RPM?
    No, the water doesn't rotate - it just gets pressure to spill out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by k9sarretired View Post
    Even though it is mildly off level, that is significant enough to get fixed. Personally, I would not accept 'polishing' as an option, or even grinding. A new piece of slate properly shaped and installed should not be very difficult for a professional. You also don't want to try to compensate by increasing the water flow. That may interfere with your surface skimming if your return jets for the pool are opposite the intakes (which they should be) and the spa overflow interferes with the surface flow. Dumping too much water midway can cause an eddy effect and a deadzone where surface debris can collect.
    Thanks for the perspective. I agree with you on all points. Yes, the returns jets for the pool are on the opposite of the intake for the spa. The PB's initial recommendation was to bias it more towards the spa. (like 70/30 or 75/25) That did help the issue, but didn't totally fix it, and that also did have me concerned (as far as not having enough power going to the returns).
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    As an update...as I mentioned, the PB changed the valve setting, like this (more of a 75/25 split between the pool returns and the spa intake). Here's what it looks like now (it's the valve to the bottom left, of course):



    This did improve the look of the waterfall, but didn't totally fix it. Here's a new view of the front, where you can still see the water on the left side (when looking at the spa from the perspective I took the photo from) is going deeper than the other side:



    Here's a side side, that looks better than before the valve change:




    But, like I said it's not totally fixed, as every few minutes it doesn't look good again...like this:



    Here's the top view after the valve setting change:





    So, overall I'm happier with the way the waterfall looks after the valve change...but, as you can see above, it's not really fixed. Also, I'm worried that the returns might not be getting enough power. I don't see any visual issues with the returns, but I'd figure that they really should be 50/50 with the spa. I actually prefer less pressure on 1 of the 3 returns, as that one is in the 6" deep sun shelf and was looking a bit too strong with the 50/50 setting.

    Here's a pic of the sun shelf after the change (which has one of the returns):




    and here's where the other 2 returns are located:



    - - - Updated - - -

    My main hesitation to having the PB change the entire stone is that so much has gone wrong during the build that I'm almost sure if I ask him to change it that they will create new issues (i.e. damaging other stuff). I'm struggling between biting the bullet and leaving it be, or having him change it and potentially dealing with more headaches.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Central, NJ
    Posts
    136

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Update - I ended up deciding to ask the PB to replace the stone. It was bothering me enough to make this decision. They'll be replacing it this Friday. Thanks for the opinions and advice.
    In-ground 47'x25' free-form gunite pool w/ spa w/ waterfall. 35,380 gallons. 3' to 8' deep. 96 sq ft 6" deep sun shelf. SunStone Select Quartz Finish (Graphite). 2 Hayward skimmers. Jandy DEV60 DE Filter + Pro Series Plus 2HP Pump. Polaris PB4-60 Pressure Cleaner Booster Pump. Raypack P-R406A Heater. EasyTouch 8. IntelliChem w/ Acid Tank. IntelliChlor IC60. Techo-Bloc bullnose coping + Blu 60 mm paver patio. Merlin SmartMesh cover. TF-100.

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Southeastern PA
    Posts
    20

    Re: Waterfall Not Uniform

    Good luck and I hope it gets done to your satisfaction. While it is not a very significant defect, it would nag at you FOREVER.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •