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Thread: Ph not registering and TA of zero

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    Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Still adjusting a friend's pool. His TA is zero and the pH is just showing like it is 6. What should I do first? It is going to take tons of Borax!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    It is a 23k gallon fiberglass. 14x36. Sand filter.
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    DaninFLA's Avatar
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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    pool math, need to add baking soda to increase TA to target around 50ppm. after that, then check pH and adjust pH up with borax. do it in steps, maybe 2/3 or what pool math says, then retest and add more.
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Will do, thanks. I was looking at the Borax amount on poolmath. 3k ozs. Lol
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Here's our other problem. Been shocking for over a week(they couldn't slam due to being out of town). It still is showing tons of cc when I test. He is brushing and vaccumming to waste. Could there be problems in the filter reintroducing the algae?
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    You'll have to be more specific about tons of CC. Posting a full set of results would be best. Even a log of recent testing...
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    By my calculations on Pool Math ONCE the TA is adjusted to 50ppm, it will take 591 ounces of Borax (which is 37 pounds, OR 7.8 (76 oz) boxes) (NOT 3K ounces?) to raise the pH from 6 to 7.4ppm. (I'm not certain how you ended up with 3K ounces of borax being needed in there??? But Please do Not add that amount).

    Also if you point your jets up to where they are making bubbles on the surface, turn on any waterfalls, or fountains the pool has, this will help raise the pH some too, so you won't have to add as much Borax.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Take your PH up a little at a time. Like whatever Poolmath says to add from 6.8 to 7.5. Leave the pump running and test and add more every 30 minutes. Soda ash will raise TA and PH at the same time. More here, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals
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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    is there a chance you have ammonia? is the FC being consumed to zero pretty quickly? either way, the solution is the same. keep adding bleach. it can be defeated.
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Quote Originally Posted by JVTrain View Post
    You'll have to be more specific about tons of CC. Posting a full set of results would be best. Even a log of recent testing...
    FC was .5 and when I done the cc test I put several drops in with no color change in sight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Last test results:
    CC was so much i put at least 10 drops in with no change.
    FC .5
    TA 0
    ph was showing 6.0 but I suspect it to be lower
    CH was in the 100s. Forgot the exact number. Don't have my paper with me
    CYA off the charts due to shocking the conventional way

    - - - Updated - - -

    How do I know if I have ammonia?
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    DaninFLA's Avatar
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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    im confused. so you did the initial test for FC, then you added in the drops for CC? if so, you add 5 drops only, if it doesn't turn pink...you have no CC
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    After I put in 5 drops it turned a very deep red. When I put the drops back in to turn it back to clear, I put several in with no visible change back to.clear
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Quote Originally Posted by lindz18 View Post
    FC was .5 and when I done the cc test I put several drops in with no color change in sight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Last test results:
    CC was so much i put at least 10 drops in with no change.
    FC .5
    TA 0
    ph was showing 6.0 but I suspect it to be lower
    CH was in the 100s. Forgot the exact number. Don't have my paper with me
    CYA off the charts due to shocking the conventional way

    - - - Updated - - -

    How do I know if I have ammonia?
    First thing to do is get some baking soda in the pool to raise the TA to at least 50, maybe higher. Get that circulating, brush things around then recheck pH. Post your findings.

    Shocking the conventional way adds CYA and is acidic, which could be why the TA has plummeted. Your pH may not be too bad once you get some TA in the pool, but that remains to be seen.

    There are test kits for ammonia you can pick up at most any pet store. They're used for fish tank testing. The reason ammonia is mentioned is that typically you only see those high CC numbers when bleach (hypochlorite) is oxidizing a chemical rather than organisms like algae. The hypochlorite VERY quickly reacts with ammonia, forming monochloramine, which shows as CC in testing. So to verify ammonia for sure, use a tank test kit. To rid yourself of the likely ammonia issue, it's going to take a lot of bleach. A LOT. But first, you need to address the pH and TA issue.

    Have you actually tested for CYA recently? Usually the source for ammonia, if it has not been added on purpose, is CYA being converted to ammonia by bacteria when FC levels are not maintained. I ask you to actually test for CYA because if you have high CYA AND ammonia, you should drain to bring down the CYA level and remove some ammonia in the process to save time/money. If you have no CYA because it was all converted to ammonia, you may not need to drain... other than to remove some ammonia if it's astronomical.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    For your FC and CC you can use a 10ml water sample instead of a 25ml and that will save you some reagents. Just add 1 scoop of powder (as long as it turns a nice med/dk shade of pink it will read fine). Add drops until color changes to clear, and multiply by .5 on both the FC and CC to get your levels.

    As JVTRAIN said above a kit is the only way to know for certain but here are a couple of good explanations of how to tell if you could have ammonia in comments # 10 and 11 of this thread. http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...ing-Pool-Clear

    I hope this helps.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    I was confused on the question about FC, sorry, I wouldn't worry about ammonia.

    if your CYA is sky high, there is no point in adding tons of baking soda and borax right now. what you need to do is drain as much of the pool as you can and refill with fresh water to get your CYA lower. once you refill, then do another round of tests to balance the pool.

    if not, you are going to spend a ton of money and end up dumping it out of the pool. fix your CYA first, then lets worry about pH, etc.
    drain your pool down to a point where you shallow end has about 1 foot of water left in it, then refill. then go from there.

    we are here to help! but draining needs to be your first step
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    I know that the cya needs to be lowered. I myself unfortunately inherited a pool that had a cya over 200. Back in April/May I done 7 partial drain and refils. It was so fun. Not. Haha. He doesn't want to do any draining at the moment. However, I know that his chemistry is not going to stay consistant until he does. Ugh.
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Drain it for him when he's not looking. Call it a happy accident!
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Quote Originally Posted by pabeader View Post
    Drain it for him when he's not looking. Call it a happy accident!
    Exactly!!!!
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    I read where one guy (not sure who it was, or what thread it was on now, but it was here on TFP), who suggested draining it from the upper portion of the shallow end, and refilling it at the same time from the deepest portion of the deep end, and lol then he'll never know it was drained at all. (Other than all the water he'll see, unless you send it down the sewer). Actually though, I thought that was a pretty darn good suggestion.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

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    DaninFLA's Avatar
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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Quote Originally Posted by lindz18 View Post
    I know that the cya needs to be lowered. I myself unfortunately inherited a pool that had a cya over 200. Back in April/May I done 7 partial drain and refils. It was so fun. Not. Haha. He doesn't want to do any draining at the moment. However, I know that his chemistry is not going to stay consistant until he does. Ugh.
    well tell him tough luck. he wants your help, so fix it. its a lot easier and less work to do one large drain and refill. multiple ones are less efficient in reducing CYA than one large one, and multiple takes more time and uses more water.

    bite the bullet and fix it once and be done. in the end he will thank you.

    if gentle persuasion doesn't work...well then, a quick SMACK might be in order
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Ph not registering and TA of zero

    Quote Originally Posted by DaninFLA View Post
    well tell him tough luck. he wants your help, so fix it. its a lot easier and less work to do one large drain and refill. multiple ones are less efficient in reducing CYA than one large one, and multiple takes more time and uses more water.

    bite the bullet and fix it once and be done. in the end he will thank you.

    if gentle persuasion doesn't work...well then, a quick SMACK might be in order
    Well, got the TA to 90... pH still way low. Not in color range. Gonna put about 6 boxes of Borax in tomorrow. CC was 24.5!!! I found that the ladder had tons of algae underneath the steps. Would it be that high just because of the steps?
    24k gal. In-ground, vinyl. 2005 build
    Hayward Pro-Series S244T sand filter system
    Hayward motor & pump (rpm 3450,model SP2607X10)
    Polaris 280 w/booster pump.Taylor K-2006 test kit

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