Building and over analyzing!

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Duc748l

I am currently have 3 bids on building our dream pool. Currently I am leaning towards one builder however I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.
After reading the description below I have tons of questions.
Questions:
Group A construction
1. Rebar correct?
2. Plumbing size pipe correct?
3. Support for rock cliff/water fall 6' tall?

Group B Equipment
1. Filter DE or Cartridge?
2. Pumps enough and right size?
3. Heater? Have no clue!
4. Control center worth going to this size and having the pda option?

Group C accessories
1. (3)LED Laminar jets anything need to be aware of? Separate pump and filter needed?
2. SAVI LED lights good?

Full description belowPool

Natural Lagoon shaped pool 47’ long by 24’ at its widest. Water area of 800 square feet, within a 125’ waters-edge perimeter. One set of steps connected to a large tanning ledge with two bubbler fountains and a umbrella socket Two long bench sitting areas. One at waterfall area and one on house side of the pool.
Large climb out at deep end of pool for safety.
Large jump rock for diving,
The pool will have a depth of 3.5’ x 5’ x 7’ x 10’.
The pool coping will all be natural Oklahoma flagstone
Pool will contain 10 tons of natural moss rock boulders for waterfalls and backside of pool beam. Boulders will be recessed into the water to create a natural look.
Waterfall will contain a large bench. Water features will have a separate pump and will be controlled by hand held PDA or I aqualink.
6 pool returns and two skimmers; dual anti-vortex main drains will be provided for safety.
Pool’s waterline to be one row of standard 6” x 6” square frost-proof tile as selected by you. Steps and benches will have 3” square warning tiles inset into the plaster along the edge.
Engineered gunite concrete shell to have 12” wide rim, with walls and floor 12” thick. Steel reinforcing #3 bars at 6” on center and double # 3 bars on floor and breaks for extra rigid structure. Top of the beam will contain 4 #4 bars set in a box beam formation tied to all the wall and floor steel.
Waterfall pad will be constructed with steel reinforced gunite for proper strength.
Price includes site clean up
Five LED Savi colored lights in pool controlled by remote PDA.
Includes finish grading and one load of top soil


Spa


6' x 8’ kidney shaped raised spa.
Spa will contain 6 therapy jets and will be controlled by handheld remote PDA.
Spa will be veneered with matching moss rock boulders and capped with Oklahoma
flagstone coping.
One LED Savi colored spa light.
Spillway will be constructed of moss rock boulders.


Plumbing


( Water Wizard Pools plumbs their pools with over sized plumbing for better flow rates. Which means faster water turnover, less time for running pumps, and less wear and tear on equipment)


All plumbing lines to be sch. 40 PVC
Main drain suction lines for pool, spa, and water features will be oversized 2.5" PVC
for proper hydraulics.
Separate 2" independent PVC skimmer lines
Pool return lines to be looped for even circulation
Dedicated line for Polaris cleaner
2.5" lines for water feature feed
All valves to be Jandy Never Lube


Decking


Approximately 900’ square feet of pool deck. Deck will be steel reinforced two color stamped concrete.
Install 12’ Oklahoma flagstone border between existing back porch and pool deck.
Decking will contain a 4" PVC drainage system with 4" deck drains with bronze covers.


Electrical


Install 40 amp electrical service from house to pool equipment location.
Install all electrical for pool equipment.


Gas


Install proper gas feed from owner provided propane tank to pool equipment


Plaster


Pool plaster will be Upgraded Diamond Brite colored quartz plaster. (Plaster has a 10 year warranty.)
 

Attachments

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Welcome to TFP.

Big pool, nice.
Love to see the plans to better visualize.
Having a separate pump for water features is good to have, lets you control control them whether the pool is filtering or not. No filter required on this loop.

Looks like the quote is planning for a dedicated pump for the waterfall.
For a 10 ton waterfall, depending on how it is designed, you will need that dedicated pump for sure. (I have a 15 ton waterfall with two 2-1/2 hp pumps driving it)

On the electrical side, you are going to need more than 40 Amps.
With a filter pump for that size pool, lets say 2-3hp 2 speed or Variable Speed, a waterfall pump 2-3hp, water feature pump 1hp, does the polaris need a booster pump? thats another 3/4hp.
You need to be sized so the can all kick on.
Not sure if landscape lighting is in your future plans, they can be controller by the pool automation, so that is some more power.
The electrician will size the service from you main panel to this load center, nothing to worry about.

Ah, you posted pics while I was writing. Yep 3hp waterfall pump for sure.
 
ozdiver,
I am out in the country so I am trying to do some of the work myself. I have already started with the outdoor kitchen and pergola. I was going to pull the electric myself and was going with a 60 AMP line and breaker do you think that is enough? Also I am concerned about sanitizing. The current bid is just doing a Chlorine based system. Is there any equipment that helps maintain levels? I know chlorine is going to be present, but I have a wife with skin allergies. I have been trying to figure out if by adding any additional equipment (Ozone, Mineral, or UV) would possibly help lower chlorine levels. I am kind of leaning towards Ozone since it destroys body oils and lotions un-like UV. Any Thoughts?
 
I'm a DIYer not an electrician and accurate sizing of a service is something best left to them.
You can add up the startup load of each of your pumps and transformer load for Low Voltage/LED landscape transformer etc to get a ballpark estimate.

SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generators) are a popular way to sanitize pool, well represented on this forum.
On the other hand Ozone, Mineral & UV are not suggested as good solutions.
In the end whether you use SWCG or traditional chlorine, both are using chlorine to do the work.
If your wife has skin sensitivity then you have come to the right place.
The way we prescribe managing your pool keeps levels to their correct and safe levels.

I use traditional chlorine myself, that is due to the amount of moss rock I have exposed to the water.
Salt can degrade the softer rocks, so I took that out of the equation.
I test & dose daily (Bleach), takes 15 minutes of my day and ensures I don't have to do anything too dramatic.
I plan to setup a liquid chlorine injector pump to automate my normal use chlorine dosing. (A Stenner pump).
This may be advantageous to you as well.
It:
- Saves effort.
- Allows you to take a vacation knowing your pool chemistry is under control.
- Means there is no high and low points in your pool chemistry during the day. (This would be especially good for your wife's skin)
 
for that many pumps and electrical I would go no lower than 100 amp minimum service.. I went with 60 amp and only have a 1hp 2 speed pump pulling 9 amps, SWG pulling 5 amps, LED 12 lighting pulling about 4 amps and a 20 amp outlet.. if all were on at the same time and maxed out it would be 70% of 60 amps... This will leave me room to add something at a later time :)
 
There was for adding a diving board. The main issue is the elevation change from deep to shallow. Our deep end extends far into the other side of the pool.
 

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This is interesting, just a few random points:

First, you should put your state in your location, I am assuming we are talking about Weatherford TX (if so I have been there are few times, mostly driving through, ate dinner there last summer on the way driving to Montana, our Macaw came from a breeder in Weatherford, so made 3 trips there in 2007 for that...)

Now down to the points,

Skip the UV, Ozone and mineral systems at best they do nothing for a well balanced outdoor residential pool, at worst mineral systems add metals which can turn blond hair and pool surfaces green.

Consider bigger electric feed

Strongly consider an electric heat pump, the cost of propane for heating a pool will be a killer, in almost all cases in our climate zone heat pumps beat gas in operating cost by a wide margin

In general we are very much in favor of SWG's for chlorination around here, but they do have the downside of eroding soft stone, reports on OK flagstone is mixed as it seems some is softer than others. If the rock is not going to be in contact with the water it is much less of an issue. If it is I would opt for a liquid chlorine injection pump

Ike
 
Can't speak to the equipment as I am just getting started and learning myself, but the design looks great and the dive-off waterfall is AWESOME!

I'm sure you probably already are looking at it, but you appear have some really nice yard space to work with landscape lighting on as well if it is going to be planted as in the render.

-plat
 
Your pool is very similar to mine. The Rebar seems good to me. I was 12 inch on center on the shallow end and six inch in the deep end and on deep end walls. However, for my rocks in the water (which are on a ledge) we went with number four REBAR from the middle of the pool to the ledge of the ROCKWALL. The difference in price wouldn't be much so you might want to consider that. For the waterfall pad I'm not sure what he means when he says it will have steel reinforced gunited for proper strength. We had a grotto not a waterfall like you but I had them put an incredible amount of REBAR up to the walls supporting the grotto. it was like 3 inch on center and number four REBAR mixed with number three. A twenty foor piece of REBAR may be eight dollars or something like that so have him add more than he thinks is necessary just for piece of mind.

2 1/2 pipes sounds good. I would suggest three inch pipes for the waterfall, however. You are going to want to maximize that flow (and agree with OZDIVER that a 3 HP pump would be good).

But I caution you! At that height the waterfall will be very loud (no one likes the sound in my family), so I added an actuator after the pool was built that let's me adjust the flow to the falls. I keep it on low all the time to appease my wife and kids. I strongly suggest you do that so you can adjust the flow and sound of the waterfall. Having one pump for all the waterfall features may not be a good idea. You might want one for just the waterfall, one for the Laminars (or maybe one for the waterfall and laminars) , and the main pump can run the Bubblers (if its a variable speed pump the pump would run at a higher speed when the bubblers are on). If you have only one pump for all the water features, you will probably find that when everything is on, they won't all get enough water. As a side note, we have bubblers and 2 laminars, but only use the laminars at night and even then not very often. If you have six LED laminars, (three sets of two where each set criss cross), it will look very nice, but our two LED laminars don't have a great effect (and you may be disappointed with just three). In contrast, we use the LED Bubblers all the time. When I went back and googled pictures of Laminars, I realized they always seem to have 6 or 8 and it looks really great. In retrospect, two wasn't sufficient.

I think they ran only 60 amps to my Pad, and I have a lot of equipment and outside lights hooked up. It is a good idea to run more than you need so that you can connect other things. I have the IAQUILINk and like it a lot.

My recollection is that my research into savi lights showed that they failed constantly and people were not happy with them.

For the Spa, I would make it 12 jets, and in at least three locations have one upper and one lower, so that three people can sit in a place and be hit with two jets each. Use some of the extra jets for the feet. A built in Spa wont feel anything like a stand alone, but by adding six more jets you can significantly improve the feel.

I agree with Isaac about a heat pump instead of propane. Although you may need another 60 amps for that.
 
Just some thoughts on a big pool.
1. I started out with just the manual chlorine dosing. Since I have a big pool, I thought I could just buy a 30 gallon drum once a month or so during the summer and and a pump to dose it. I found that due to federal regulations chemical supply houses won't sell chlorine to someone or a business that's in a residential neighborhood. I won't go into all the details, Sufise it to say I am probably now on some watch list. So, check first to find your source of chlorine.

2. I changed to a Swg system, had I thought it through, I would have picked stone that is more salt tolerant. I have flagstone. I did put a sealer on. It is LM-350. It has a wet look finish to it.

3. Make sure you have enough lights, especially in the deep end. I have 10 foot depth and wish I had more lighting.

Some day I will post pics of my pool, once I figure out how too...��
 
I forgot to add. I have psoriasis (skin disorder), and before adding the SWG, my skin would feel little irritated after swimming. It doesn't feel that way anymore. If, you haven't swam in a pool with a SWG, maybe you can find someone with one and invite yourself over.
I'm sure a case of beer is plenty for admission.
 
Also thanks to everyone replying to my questions I really do appreciate everyone's knowledge.

Ok,
So this is my second bid that I am considering. I noticed there are some difference.
So here are my questions:
Engineering: The Re-bar is different this quote has 1/2" on 8" - 10" centers instead of #3 on 6" centers
Also this is the first quote that went with Pentair instead of Jandy equipment. This quote also seems to have a lot more HP In the pump arena. IS MORE BETTER? I would think so.

SPA: on a spa this size what do you think the min and max amount of jets would be needed?

Plumbing: Does heat bending the pvc pipe vs solid elbows be a concern?


Pool Specs:132 ' PER ; 870 SF ; 44'' X 26' ' ; 3'6'' x 10''
PERMITSINC
STEEL SIZEINCFULL 1/2'' STUCTURE 8'' - 10'' CENTERS
EXCAVATION:
ROCK CHARGEOPT10 HR MAXIMUM 2 HR MINIMUM
PLUMBING:
45 ' - EQ RUNINC2 1/2" SUCTION FROM MAINDRAIN - 2" SUCTION FROM SKIMMERS
6 - RETURNSINC1 1/2" RETURN
POOL FILLINCHOEBIB UNDERGROUND
WATERFALL # 1 RUN2 1/2'' SUCTION W/ 2'' RETURN TO MULTI VALVE MANIFOLD
WATERFALL # 2 RUN2 1/2'' SUCTION W/ 2'' RETURN TO MULTI VALVE MANIFOLD
GUNITE:
TANNING LEDGEWITH 3 - 1 1/2" BUBBLERS -
EXT. 2ND STEP -INCQ
WATERFALL BEAM/ PAD3' X 20'
TILE & COPING:
COPINGOKLAHOMA FLAGSTONE ACCENT BOULDERS INCLUDED
TILEINCSTANDARD 6'' X 6''
WATER FEATURE6' X 20' WATERFALL & 25' OF WEEPING WALLS
ELECTRIC:
POOL & SPA LIGHTING5 LED GLOBRITES IN POOL 1 - IN SPA
REMOTEEASYTOUCH 8 FUNCTION W/ WIRELESS COMMUNICATIONS
DECKS:
1270 SQ FTNO COLOR SKIN STAMP
DECK DRAIN SYSTEM4'' SURFACE DRAINS - 4'' PVC DRAINLINE UP TO 50'
PLASTER:
WHITEINC
COLORED QUARTZDESIGNER SERIES, SPARKLE QUARTZ, SUNSTONE SELECTIONS
SPA
clip_image002.png
6 JETS, SPA FTN INCLUDES SPA PLUMBING RUN
INCLUDES TILE ROLLED BEAMINC
BLOWER1.5 HP SILENCER
PROPANRE HEATERMASTERTEMP 400K BTU
GAS RUNINCLUDES CONNECTION
EQUIPMENT:
3 HP VARIABLE SPEED PUMP
clip_image004.png
INC
FILTERINC 520 CARTRIDGE FILTER
POOL CLEANERLLETRO RACER WITH BOOSTRITE PUMP
INLINE CHLORINATORWITH ECLIPSE OZONE GENERATOR
BOOSTER PUMP #12 HP WHISPERFLO FOR MAIN FALLS
BOOSTER PUMP # 22 HP WHISPERFLO FOR WEEPING WALL & BUBBLERS)
 

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