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Thread: Building and over analyzing!

  1. Back To Top    #1
    Duc748l
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    Building and over analyzing!

    I am currently have 3 bids on building our dream pool. Currently I am leaning towards one builder however I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.
    After reading the description below I have tons of questions.
    Questions:
    Group A construction
    1. Rebar correct?
    2. Plumbing size pipe correct?
    3. Support for rock cliff/water fall 6' tall?

    Group B Equipment
    1. Filter DE or Cartridge?
    2. Pumps enough and right size?
    3. Heater? Have no clue!
    4. Control center worth going to this size and having the pda option?

    Group C accessories
    1. (3)LED Laminar jets anything need to be aware of? Separate pump and filter needed?
    2. SAVI LED lights good?

    Full description belowPool

    Natural Lagoon shaped pool 47’ long by 24’ at its widest. Water area of 800 square feet, within a 125’ waters-edge perimeter. One set of steps connected to a large tanning ledge with two bubbler fountains and a umbrella socket Two long bench sitting areas. One at waterfall area and one on house side of the pool.
    Large climb out at deep end of pool for safety.
    Large jump rock for diving,
    The pool will have a depth of 3.5’ x 5’ x 7’ x 10’.
    The pool coping will all be natural Oklahoma flagstone
    Pool will contain 10 tons of natural moss rock boulders for waterfalls and backside of pool beam. Boulders will be recessed into the water to create a natural look.
    Waterfall will contain a large bench. Water features will have a separate pump and will be controlled by hand held PDA or I aqualink.
    6 pool returns and two skimmers; dual anti-vortex main drains will be provided for safety.
    Pool’s waterline to be one row of standard 6” x 6” square frost-proof tile as selected by you. Steps and benches will have 3” square warning tiles inset into the plaster along the edge.
    Engineered gunite concrete shell to have 12” wide rim, with walls and floor 12” thick. Steel reinforcing #3 bars at 6” on center and double # 3 bars on floor and breaks for extra rigid structure. Top of the beam will contain 4 #4 bars set in a box beam formation tied to all the wall and floor steel.
    Waterfall pad will be constructed with steel reinforced gunite for proper strength.
    Price includes site clean up
    Five LED Savi colored lights in pool controlled by remote PDA.
    Includes finish grading and one load of top soil


    Spa


    6' x 8’ kidney shaped raised spa.
    Spa will contain 6 therapy jets and will be controlled by handheld remote PDA.
    Spa will be veneered with matching moss rock boulders and capped with Oklahoma
    flagstone coping.
    One LED Savi colored spa light.
    Spillway will be constructed of moss rock boulders.


    Plumbing


    ( Water Wizard Pools plumbs their pools with over sized plumbing for better flow rates. Which means faster water turnover, less time for running pumps, and less wear and tear on equipment)


    All plumbing lines to be sch. 40 PVC
    Main drain suction lines for pool, spa, and water features will be oversized 2.5" PVC
    for proper hydraulics.
    Separate 2" independent PVC skimmer lines
    Pool return lines to be looped for even circulation
    Dedicated line for Polaris cleaner
    2.5" lines for water feature feed
    All valves to be Jandy Never Lube


    Decking


    Approximately 900’ square feet of pool deck. Deck will be steel reinforced two color stamped concrete.
    Install 12’ Oklahoma flagstone border between existing back porch and pool deck.
    Decking will contain a 4" PVC drainage system with 4" deck drains with bronze covers.


    Electrical


    Install 40 amp electrical service from house to pool equipment location.
    Install all electrical for pool equipment.


    Gas


    Install proper gas feed from owner provided propane tank to pool equipment


    Plaster


    Pool plaster will be Upgraded Diamond Brite colored quartz plaster. (Plaster has a 10 year warranty.)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JamieP's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    I don't know the answer to your questions, but that is going to be one awesome pool! Do you have any renderings to post? I'll look forward to following your build.
    28,000 gallon freeform, Stonescapes Tropics Blue Minipebble with abalone, 3.5' to 8.5' depth. 2 skimmers, 5 returns, dedicated vacuum port, Dolphin Z5 robot. All Pentair equip: EasyTouch 8, IC60 SWG, VS pump, 520 Cartridge Filter, 3 Intellibrites, 2 Color Cascade Bubblers. TurboTwister Slide and 8' Salt System Jump Board. TF-100. My Jan-Mar 2016 build:
    Waxahachie, TX Owner Build - A race to beat the baby!!

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Duc748l
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Just posted images.

  4. Back To Top    #4
    JamieP's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Yup. The pictures prove it. AWESOME!
    28,000 gallon freeform, Stonescapes Tropics Blue Minipebble with abalone, 3.5' to 8.5' depth. 2 skimmers, 5 returns, dedicated vacuum port, Dolphin Z5 robot. All Pentair equip: EasyTouch 8, IC60 SWG, VS pump, 520 Cartridge Filter, 3 Intellibrites, 2 Color Cascade Bubblers. TurboTwister Slide and 8' Salt System Jump Board. TF-100. My Jan-Mar 2016 build:
    Waxahachie, TX Owner Build - A race to beat the baby!!

  5. Back To Top    #5
    ozdiver's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Welcome to TFP.

    Big pool, nice.
    Love to see the plans to better visualize.
    Having a separate pump for water features is good to have, lets you control control them whether the pool is filtering or not. No filter required on this loop.

    Looks like the quote is planning for a dedicated pump for the waterfall.
    For a 10 ton waterfall, depending on how it is designed, you will need that dedicated pump for sure. (I have a 15 ton waterfall with two 2-1/2 hp pumps driving it)

    On the electrical side, you are going to need more than 40 Amps.
    With a filter pump for that size pool, lets say 2-3hp 2 speed or Variable Speed, a waterfall pump 2-3hp, water feature pump 1hp, does the polaris need a booster pump? thats another 3/4hp.
    You need to be sized so the can all kick on.
    Not sure if landscape lighting is in your future plans, they can be controller by the pool automation, so that is some more power.
    The electrician will size the service from you main panel to this load center, nothing to worry about.

    Ah, you posted pics while I was writing. Yep 3hp waterfall pump for sure.
    40k gal freeform, IG pebblesheen, 9'x'6' raised spa, 2-1/2 hp Whisperflo, 520 sq/ft cartridge, Legend w/ booster, Intellibrite 5g in pool @ spa, Rainbow 320 Chlorinator(retired),
    Mastertemp 400k BTU, 3x3 hp Whisperflo Swimjets, 2x2 hp Whisperflow for 15ton moss rock waterfall, Intelitouch Controller, 850 sq/ft Travertine deck, Gas/Wood firepit,
    Autofill, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Duc748l
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    ozdiver,
    I am out in the country so I am trying to do some of the work myself. I have already started with the outdoor kitchen and pergola. I was going to pull the electric myself and was going with a 60 AMP line and breaker do you think that is enough? Also I am concerned about sanitizing. The current bid is just doing a Chlorine based system. Is there any equipment that helps maintain levels? I know chlorine is going to be present, but I have a wife with skin allergies. I have been trying to figure out if by adding any additional equipment (Ozone, Mineral, or UV) would possibly help lower chlorine levels. I am kind of leaning towards Ozone since it destroys body oils and lotions un-like UV. Any Thoughts?

  7. Back To Top    #7
    ozdiver's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    I'm a DIYer not an electrician and accurate sizing of a service is something best left to them.
    You can add up the startup load of each of your pumps and transformer load for Low Voltage/LED landscape transformer etc to get a ballpark estimate.

    SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generators) are a popular way to sanitize pool, well represented on this forum.
    On the other hand Ozone, Mineral & UV are not suggested as good solutions.
    In the end whether you use SWCG or traditional chlorine, both are using chlorine to do the work.
    If your wife has skin sensitivity then you have come to the right place.
    The way we prescribe managing your pool keeps levels to their correct and safe levels.

    I use traditional chlorine myself, that is due to the amount of moss rock I have exposed to the water.
    Salt can degrade the softer rocks, so I took that out of the equation.
    I test & dose daily (Bleach), takes 15 minutes of my day and ensures I don't have to do anything too dramatic.
    I plan to setup a liquid chlorine injector pump to automate my normal use chlorine dosing. (A Stenner pump).
    This may be advantageous to you as well.
    It:
    - Saves effort.
    - Allows you to take a vacation knowing your pool chemistry is under control.
    - Means there is no high and low points in your pool chemistry during the day. (This would be especially good for your wife's skin)
    40k gal freeform, IG pebblesheen, 9'x'6' raised spa, 2-1/2 hp Whisperflo, 520 sq/ft cartridge, Legend w/ booster, Intellibrite 5g in pool @ spa, Rainbow 320 Chlorinator(retired),
    Mastertemp 400k BTU, 3x3 hp Whisperflo Swimjets, 2x2 hp Whisperflow for 15ton moss rock waterfall, Intelitouch Controller, 850 sq/ft Travertine deck, Gas/Wood firepit,
    Autofill, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir

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    cowboycasey's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    for that many pumps and electrical I would go no lower than 100 amp minimum service.. I went with 60 amp and only have a 1hp 2 speed pump pulling 9 amps, SWG pulling 5 amps, LED 12 lighting pulling about 4 amps and a 20 amp outlet.. if all were on at the same time and maxed out it would be 70% of 60 amps... This will leave me room to add something at a later time
    Pool: Intex 16x32 15000 gal, 2 speed 340042, Pentair CC320 Filter, CircuPool SJ45 Salt System, Intermatic PE653RC; Hot Tub: 650 Gal SWG Megachlor
    links: pool school * Recommended-Levels * SLAM * CYA chart * Test kits * How To Post Pictures * Poolmath * OCLT ** Support your website if we helped you :) **

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Is there a formula for depth of the pool vs depth of the diving rock?

    Just curious.

    This build looks AWESOME.

    ac

  10. Back To Top    #10
    Duc748l
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    There was for adding a diving board. The main issue is the elevation change from deep to shallow. Our deep end extends far into the other side of the pool.

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    OH I want to watch this one too!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

  12. Back To Top    #12
    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    This is interesting, just a few random points:

    First, you should put your state in your location, I am assuming we are talking about Weatherford TX (if so I have been there are few times, mostly driving through, ate dinner there last summer on the way driving to Montana, our Macaw came from a breeder in Weatherford, so made 3 trips there in 2007 for that...)

    Now down to the points,

    Skip the UV, Ozone and mineral systems at best they do nothing for a well balanced outdoor residential pool, at worst mineral systems add metals which can turn blond hair and pool surfaces green.

    Consider bigger electric feed

    Strongly consider an electric heat pump, the cost of propane for heating a pool will be a killer, in almost all cases in our climate zone heat pumps beat gas in operating cost by a wide margin

    In general we are very much in favor of SWG's for chlorination around here, but they do have the downside of eroding soft stone, reports on OK flagstone is mixed as it seems some is softer than others. If the rock is not going to be in contact with the water it is much less of an issue. If it is I would opt for a liquid chlorine injection pump

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
    ~Remember TFP counts on your donations to keep this site ad free~

  13. Back To Top    #13
    platipus's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Can't speak to the equipment as I am just getting started and learning myself, but the design looks great and the dive-off waterfall is AWESOME!

    I'm sure you probably already are looking at it, but you appear have some really nice yard space to work with landscape lighting on as well if it is going to be planted as in the render.

    -plat
    Modern Geometric-ish Social Pool (4'-5'-4') ~13' x 47'. Sun shelf. Perimeter overflow spa. RiverFlow Swimjet. Dog ramp. "Bubble Lounge"©
    Link to my patio build, completed 2013
    Link to my pool build, Aug '15 - Sep '16

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Your pool is very similar to mine. The Rebar seems good to me. I was 12 inch on center on the shallow end and six inch in the deep end and on deep end walls. However, for my rocks in the water (which are on a ledge) we went with number four REBAR from the middle of the pool to the ledge of the ROCKWALL. The difference in price wouldn't be much so you might want to consider that. For the waterfall pad I'm not sure what he means when he says it will have steel reinforced gunited for proper strength. We had a grotto not a waterfall like you but I had them put an incredible amount of REBAR up to the walls supporting the grotto. it was like 3 inch on center and number four REBAR mixed with number three. A twenty foor piece of REBAR may be eight dollars or something like that so have him add more than he thinks is necessary just for piece of mind.

    2 1/2 pipes sounds good. I would suggest three inch pipes for the waterfall, however. You are going to want to maximize that flow (and agree with OZDIVER that a 3 HP pump would be good).

    But I caution you! At that height the waterfall will be very loud (no one likes the sound in my family), so I added an actuator after the pool was built that let's me adjust the flow to the falls. I keep it on low all the time to appease my wife and kids. I strongly suggest you do that so you can adjust the flow and sound of the waterfall. Having one pump for all the waterfall features may not be a good idea. You might want one for just the waterfall, one for the Laminars (or maybe one for the waterfall and laminars) , and the main pump can run the Bubblers (if its a variable speed pump the pump would run at a higher speed when the bubblers are on). If you have only one pump for all the water features, you will probably find that when everything is on, they won't all get enough water. As a side note, we have bubblers and 2 laminars, but only use the laminars at night and even then not very often. If you have six LED laminars, (three sets of two where each set criss cross), it will look very nice, but our two LED laminars don't have a great effect (and you may be disappointed with just three). In contrast, we use the LED Bubblers all the time. When I went back and googled pictures of Laminars, I realized they always seem to have 6 or 8 and it looks really great. In retrospect, two wasn't sufficient.

    I think they ran only 60 amps to my Pad, and I have a lot of equipment and outside lights hooked up. It is a good idea to run more than you need so that you can connect other things. I have the IAQUILINk and like it a lot.

    My recollection is that my research into savi lights showed that they failed constantly and people were not happy with them.

    For the Spa, I would make it 12 jets, and in at least three locations have one upper and one lower, so that three people can sit in a place and be hit with two jets each. Use some of the extra jets for the feet. A built in Spa wont feel anything like a stand alone, but by adding six more jets you can significantly improve the feel.

    I agree with Isaac about a heat pump instead of propane. Although you may need another 60 amps for that.
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    oops yeah I forgot the savi light issue, I have never seen a positive review on them on here, lots of negatives though, mostly repeated failures
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
    ~Remember TFP counts on your donations to keep this site ad free~

  16. Back To Top    #16
    jst's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Just some thoughts on a big pool.
    1. I started out with just the manual chlorine dosing. Since I have a big pool, I thought I could just buy a 30 gallon drum once a month or so during the summer and and a pump to dose it. I found that due to federal regulations chemical supply houses won't sell chlorine to someone or a business that's in a residential neighborhood. I won't go into all the details, Sufise it to say I am probably now on some watch list. So, check first to find your source of chlorine.

    2. I changed to a Swg system, had I thought it through, I would have picked stone that is more salt tolerant. I have flagstone. I did put a sealer on. It is LM-350. It has a wet look finish to it.

    3. Make sure you have enough lights, especially in the deep end. I have 10 foot depth and wish I had more lighting.

    Some day I will post pics of my pool, once I figure out how too...��
    50' by 20' geo/free form
    3' to 10' depth, 42kish, 2 Cartridge, 2 VS pumps
    2 Aquapure 1400

  17. Back To Top    #17
    jst's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    I forgot to add. I have psoriasis (skin disorder), and before adding the SWG, my skin would feel little irritated after swimming. It doesn't feel that way anymore. If, you haven't swam in a pool with a SWG, maybe you can find someone with one and invite yourself over.
    I'm sure a case of beer is plenty for admission.
    50' by 20' geo/free form
    3' to 10' depth, 42kish, 2 Cartridge, 2 VS pumps
    2 Aquapure 1400

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Jst, love your avatar!
    Marla
    No longer living vicariously through other people's pool builds. Pool build is complete on my IG SWCG pool, approx 10,000 gallons. All Jandy equipment - VS 1.5 hp pump, 580 cartridge filter, AquaPure 1400 salt cell, AquaLink PDA system. Dolphin m500. PebbleSheen Blue Surf with shells and beads added. TF-100 w/ SpeedStir. A Houston Pool Build Inside the Loop

  19. Back To Top    #19
    jst's Avatar
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Thanks,

    Her name is Dixie (French Britney)
    50' by 20' geo/free form
    3' to 10' depth, 42kish, 2 Cartridge, 2 VS pumps
    2 Aquapure 1400

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Duc748l
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    Re: Building and over analyzing!

    Also thanks to everyone replying to my questions I really do appreciate everyone's knowledge.

    Ok,
    So this is my second bid that I am considering. I noticed there are some difference.
    So here are my questions:
    Engineering: The Re-bar is different this quote has 1/2" on 8" - 10" centers instead of #3 on 6" centers
    Also this is the first quote that went with Pentair instead of Jandy equipment. This quote also seems to have a lot more HP In the pump arena. IS MORE BETTER? I would think so.

    SPA: on a spa this size what do you think the min and max amount of jets would be needed?

    Plumbing: Does heat bending the pvc pipe vs solid elbows be a concern?


    Pool Specs: 132 ' PER ; 870 SF ; 44'' X 26' ' ; 3'6'' x 10''
    PERMITS INC
    STEEL SIZE INC FULL 1/2'' STUCTURE 8'' - 10'' CENTERS
    EXCAVATION:
    ROCK CHARGE OPT 10 HR MAXIMUM 2 HR MINIMUM
    PLUMBING:
    45 ' - EQ RUN INC 2 1/2" SUCTION FROM MAINDRAIN - 2" SUCTION FROM SKIMMERS
    6 - RETURNS INC 1 1/2" RETURN
    POOL FILL INC HOEBIB UNDERGROUND
    WATERFALL # 1 RUN 2 1/2'' SUCTION W/ 2'' RETURN TO MULTI VALVE MANIFOLD
    WATERFALL # 2 RUN 2 1/2'' SUCTION W/ 2'' RETURN TO MULTI VALVE MANIFOLD
    GUNITE:
    TANNING LEDGE WITH 3 - 1 1/2" BUBBLERS -
    EXT. 2ND STEP - INC Q
    WATERFALL BEAM/ PAD 3' X 20'
    TILE & COPING:
    COPING OKLAHOMA FLAGSTONE ACCENT BOULDERS INCLUDED
    TILE INC STANDARD 6'' X 6''
    WATER FEATURE 6' X 20' WATERFALL & 25' OF WEEPING WALLS
    ELECTRIC:
    POOL & SPA LIGHTING 5 LED GLOBRITES IN POOL 1 - IN SPA
    REMOTE EASYTOUCH 8 FUNCTION W/ WIRELESS COMMUNICATIONS
    DECKS:
    1270 SQ FT NO COLOR SKIN STAMP
    DECK DRAIN SYSTEM 4'' SURFACE DRAINS - 4'' PVC DRAINLINE UP TO 50'
    PLASTER:
    WHITE INC
    COLORED QUARTZ DESIGNER SERIES, SPARKLE QUARTZ, SUNSTONE SELECTIONS
    SPA [IMG]file:///C:/Users/RHILLE~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png[/IMG]
    6 JETS, SPA FTN INCLUDES SPA PLUMBING RUN
    INCLUDES TILE ROLLED BEAM INC
    BLOWER 1.5 HP SILENCER
    PROPANRE HEATER MASTERTEMP 400K BTU
    GAS RUN INCLUDES CONNECTION
    EQUIPMENT:
    3 HP VARIABLE SPEED PUMP [IMG]file:///C:/Users/RHILLE~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.png[/IMG]
    INC
    FILTER INC 520 CARTRIDGE FILTER
    POOL CLEANER LLETRO RACER WITH BOOSTRITE PUMP
    INLINE CHLORINATOR WITH ECLIPSE OZONE GENERATOR
    BOOSTER PUMP #1 2 HP WHISPERFLO FOR MAIN FALLS
    BOOSTER PUMP # 2 2 HP WHISPERFLO FOR WEEPING WALL & BUBBLERS)

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