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Thread: New pool owner in TX

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    New pool owner in TX

    Hi everyone! We are in the middle of a pool build at our house. Electrician comes to tomorrow then the decking begins! I expect water to be in the pool within 2-3 weeks. We selected our PB and equipment prior to finding this form. We are going with a standard chlorine pool, but with the addition of a UV filter and Ozone system. After reading many posts on this site, it sounds like the UV and Ozone system may have been a wast of money.... oh well
    I will be maintaining the pool myself, and I am trying to soak up as much information I can from this site. I would like clarification on the water chemistry in regards to the Ozone and UV filter. They claim it will reduce the chlorine usage, I suspect this means it should take less chlorine over time to maintain the desired test readings. I just want to make sure that I am still supposed to try and keep my chemistry within the same desired levels as a pool without the UV and Ozone system.

    Thanks!
    Pool Area 510 Sq. ft, 94 Ln ft. 3'6" to 6', 18,120 Gal, Pebble Sheen, Pentair Clean & Clear plus 420 sq ft Cartridge, Pool pump Sta Rite Intellipro VS, Paramount pump sta Rite 1 HP Max E Pro, Water feature Sta- Rite 2 HP max E pro, PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation system, Rainbow Chlorinator O/L, Ultra Uv, Paramount Clear O3 Ozone system, Sta Rite Max E Therm 400k Btu heater. 2 Paraglo Multi Color LED, Paramount Paralevel.

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Welcome to TFP! Your pool sounds gorgeous. As far as the ozone and UV systems, in my opinion, and others here, not much value. As far as maintenance and chemistry goes, this site has some marvelous information and talented pool guys that can make your pool experience enjoyable. Utilize it freely!

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    Defgufman's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Welcome to team TFP
    Inground 13,200 gal Vinyl, Pentair 3/4 hp pump, Pentair Sand Dollar filter, Polaris 280

    Pool School, Pool Math, CYA to FC ratio chart, Testing Kits

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    I'll see if, by mentioning his name, our resident chemgeek can be magically summoned!
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    BoDarville's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Welcome to TFP!

    Here are some resources to give you an overview of managing your pool using our methods:
    1. ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry
    2. Chlorine CYA Chart
    3. Recommended Pool Chemicals
    4. Recommended Levels
    5. Pool Math
    Gold Supporter, TFP Lifetime Supporter, 26,680 gal Plaster IGP 3.5 - 10' depth / Attached Waterfall Spa, Manually Chlorinated, Triton Sand Filter, 1.5 HP * 1.1 SF = 1.65 SFHP 1-speed Pentair WhisperFlo WF-26 Pump, 400K BTU NG Teledyne Laars Series One Heater, Polaris 360, Test Kit Comparison, Chlorine/CYA Chart, SLAMing Your Pool, OCLT
    A good test kit is an investment, not an expense.

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Perhaps you should ask whomever suggested the UV and ozone systems how algae and bacteria stuck onto pool surfaces (walls and bottom) are going to be handled by these UV and ozone systems? Oh yeah, that's right, they don't do a darn thing since they only kill what is free-floating and gets to their system. While some algae may be free-floating, some are not and most bacteria prefer to grow on surfaces, not free-float. Furthermore, even for free-floating algae or pathogens it takes 7 turnovers (usually 7 days or more) to have 99.9% of the water pass through the system for 3-log reductions; with a single turnover (usually 1 day or more) only 63% of the water has been circulated through the system. Bacteria can double in population every 15-60 minutes while algae can double every 3-8 hours. The claim of high kill rates through the system is irrelevant since it is limited by circulation.

    So you can then ask them exactly how one can have a lower chlorine level if chlorine is the only thing preventing algae and pathogens from growing on pool surfaces or in any areas of pool water that don't get circulated.

    If they then give you some baloney about how the ozone will oxidize bather waste so that chlorine doesn't have to, ask them exactly how much chlorine demand is created by such bather waste. They will probably stare blankly into space at which point you can tell them that every person-hour of swimming in your 18,120 gallon pool uses up only 0.06 ppm FC. Then tell them that losses from sunlight will be at least 1 to 2 ppm FC per day so ask them how the UV or ozone systems are preventing losses of chlorine from sunlight since that is how most chlorine gets lost. Oh yeah, more blank stares.

    Then ask them if the UV or the ozone will deplete the chlorine in the pool. If they say no, ask them why Figure 3 in this paper that is peer-reviewed and published in a respected journal shows both hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion absorption of UV in the UV-C range of their UV lamps (including 254 nm), not just the UV-A and UV-B range in sunlight (300-400 nm). More blank stares. Then show them the paper Chemistries of Ozone for Municipal Pool and Spa Water Treatment where the section on "Reactions of Ozone With Chlorine Species" shows how ozone reacts with hypochlorite ion to produce chloride and chlorate ions.

    Now in practice many UV and especially ozone systems are undersized for residential pools so there may be little chlorine loss seen, but if they are that undersized then what exactly are they doing? They may tell you that the UV and ozone will inactivate the protozoan oocsyst Cryptosporidium parvum which is highly chlorine-resistant and that is true, but then ask them where this comes from. If they tell you the truth they will say that it is not like algae spores that are blown into pools or like soil bacteria that may also get blown in or like fecal bacteria or bacteria on your skin that you add to the water or like viruses you add to the water. Crypto comes from people with the parasite AND that have diarrhea and release it into your pool from a discharge. As noted in the CDC 2011-2012 Cryptosporidiosis Surveillance Report, the incidence rate of cryptosporidiosis peaked in 2007 at around 4 per 100,000 population and the number of outbreaks in commercial/public pools in 2007-2008 was 58 (see CDC Outbreaks of Illness Associated with Recreational Water — United States, 2011–2012) which out of 300,000 such pools represents 0.02% over a 2-year period. What are the odds that you invite someone over to your pool who knowingly has diarrhea caused by Crypto? Even if they did, the UV or ozone would not prevent person-to-person transmission of the disease. It would only prevent it continuing to infect over the next weeks (remember it takes 7 turnovers for 99.9% inactivation/kill), but don't you think you would know if someone did have diarrhea in your pool? And don't you think a 0.02% commercial/public pool risk likely translates into more like a one in a million or lower risk for your residential pool given the far fewer people using the pool?

    Let them know how unhappy you are that they are either ignorant (nicer word than incompetent) or deceitful and then ask yourself if you really do want to proceed with buying these unnecessary systems for your outdoor residential pool.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    This may be my favorite chem geek post
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Thanks chem geek for all the information highlighting my bad decision . Unfortunately the equipment has already been installed on the pad and the plumbing completed. I guess when it does not work it will do no harm (with the exception to my checking account,) and I will just maintain the pool as if the UV and Ozone systems were not installed. I am going through the pool school articles and hope to start off the pool in the right direction. Thanks Again, I will now hang my head and go sit in the corner.
    Pool Area 510 Sq. ft, 94 Ln ft. 3'6" to 6', 18,120 Gal, Pebble Sheen, Pentair Clean & Clear plus 420 sq ft Cartridge, Pool pump Sta Rite Intellipro VS, Paramount pump sta Rite 1 HP Max E Pro, Water feature Sta- Rite 2 HP max E pro, PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation system, Rainbow Chlorinator O/L, Ultra Uv, Paramount Clear O3 Ozone system, Sta Rite Max E Therm 400k Btu heater. 2 Paraglo Multi Color LED, Paramount Paralevel.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    We all learn as we go bmusick, sometimes the hard ($$) way. Still, you will learn more about pool chemistry from your time here with TFP than some pool builders or store clerks have learned in their 20+ years. So you have a few extra gadgets on-board right now. You won't be thinking about those when you're doing cannonballs off the side of your pool into crystal clear (TFP) water. Welcome to TFP!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    We all learn as we go bmusick, sometimes the hard ($$) way. Still, you will learn more about pool chemistry from your time here with TFP than some pool builders or store clerks have learned in their 20+ years. So you have a few extra gadgets on-board right now. You won't be thinking about those when you're doing cannonballs off the side of your pool into crystal clear (TFP) water. Welcome to TFP!
    Thanks Texas Splash. Although I wish the UV and Ozone worked as they stated, I will not let the fact that I wasted money take away from our happiness with our pool build. The PB also runs a large pool maintenance fleet. They will be coming over to do their version of "Pool School." From what it sounds like PB and Maintenance companies tend to use a different method to maintain the pools chemistry (Chlorine tabs.) Is there anything to take away from their training?
    Pool Area 510 Sq. ft, 94 Ln ft. 3'6" to 6', 18,120 Gal, Pebble Sheen, Pentair Clean & Clear plus 420 sq ft Cartridge, Pool pump Sta Rite Intellipro VS, Paramount pump sta Rite 1 HP Max E Pro, Water feature Sta- Rite 2 HP max E pro, PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation system, Rainbow Chlorinator O/L, Ultra Uv, Paramount Clear O3 Ozone system, Sta Rite Max E Therm 400k Btu heater. 2 Paraglo Multi Color LED, Paramount Paralevel.

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    Texas Splash's Avatar
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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Read all you can here before they arrive. Keep some notes on what they say about products and "their" recommended levels because it will be a blur after they leave. Pay attention to what test kit they use (if any) to test the water. Then you compare to what we teach here about using the proper test kit, knowing the relationship between FC and CYA based on the Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart. No need to get into a debate about "TFP versus them" kind of thing, just go along with everything for now.

    After they leave, the most important part in the short term is ensuring you do exactly as they say simply so that you do not void the pool warranty. That's very important! After that's done, you're on your own. Since this is a new pool, you may also want to read our start-up page Pool School - Start-up New Plaster just so you can compare to what they say. You still need to follow their instructions for the warranty, but you can always ask questions.

    The more you can read now and remember from TFP before the PB's visit, the more beneficial (and entertaining) the whole thing may be. Oh, and again ... most important ... order your own test kit now if you haven't already! You can go to TFTestkits.net and order the TF-100. It uses all Taylor reagents but in larger, more economical quantities. Also ask for the speed stir for easy mixing. Great value.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Welcome to TFP! From your signature, it looks like you're using the same PB as we did. I was fortunate enough to find this forum before we started construction. Our PB also had the UV/ozone in their proposal. When we asked them to remove those items from our proposal, they did so without hesitation and didn't even try to sell us on the so-called 'benefits' of including them. Maybe they knew that I studied the subject and that I was armed with chem geek's information

    I also recommend getting the TF-100. The test kit that the PB delivered was insufficient to maintain the pool using the methods from this forum.

    The tech supervisor that came to my house for pool startup and Pool School was very knowledgable. I told him that I was planning to maintain my pool with liquid chlorine and that I want to install a Stenner pump in the future. He thought that was a good idea, and he understood and acknowledged the problem of raising CYA with continued use of trichlor pucks. He also took the time to explain the ins and outs of the PCC system, including how to disassemble the individual nozzles to clean out debris. Although their service department can maintain the pool for you, he believes that an educated customer that can take ownership of the pool is the happiest and easiest customer.

    Congratulations on your new pool! We would love to see pictures
    15k gallon IG, 36' x 15', built April 2015, Pebble Sheen
    Pentair CCP420 cartridge filter, Pentair EasyTouch 8 controller, Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm 400K Heater
    Sta-Rite IntelliPro VS pump, Sta-Rite Max-E-Pro 1HP & 2HP pumps
    Paramount PCC2000 ICS, TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Thanks Everyone! Just ordered the TF-100 and Speed stir.

    @applebe how do you like the in-floor cleaning system?

    I do not want to imply that the PB pushed the UV and Ozone system on us. It was in the original bid, along with the in floor cleaning system. Our designer was not pushy in any way. It is my fault for not researching it, I just said OK . The bid was not itemized so honestly I do not even know how much the Ozone and UV system added . At this point I do not want to know

    Here is a picture before they tore up the yard for the plumbing. Should start decking sometime next week. The center wall in back is a weeping wall.
    IMG_3710 (1).jpg
    Pool Area 510 Sq. ft, 94 Ln ft. 3'6" to 6', 18,120 Gal, Pebble Sheen, Pentair Clean & Clear plus 420 sq ft Cartridge, Pool pump Sta Rite Intellipro VS, Paramount pump sta Rite 1 HP Max E Pro, Water feature Sta- Rite 2 HP max E pro, PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation system, Rainbow Chlorinator O/L, Ultra Uv, Paramount Clear O3 Ozone system, Sta Rite Max E Therm 400k Btu heater. 2 Paraglo Multi Color LED, Paramount Paralevel.

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    That will be a nice pool! Thanks for sharing.

    We're very happy with our PCC-2000. The system works as advertised and keeps the floor spotless. I also like to run the system to stir up the water quickly after adding chemicals.
    I agree with what Jaybauman wrote about his IFC recently:

    My thoughts after using Paramount PCC2000 In-Floor Cleaning system for 6 months

    What type of decking and what Pebble Sheen color did you select?
    15k gallon IG, 36' x 15', built April 2015, Pebble Sheen
    Pentair CCP420 cartridge filter, Pentair EasyTouch 8 controller, Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm 400K Heater
    Sta-Rite IntelliPro VS pump, Sta-Rite Max-E-Pro 1HP & 2HP pumps
    Paramount PCC2000 ICS, TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Quote Originally Posted by appelbe View Post
    That will be a nice pool! Thanks for sharing.

    We're very happy with our PCC-2000. The system works as advertised and keeps the floor spotless. I also like to run the system to stir up the water quickly after adding chemicals.
    I agree with what Jaybauman wrote about his IFC recently:

    My thoughts after using Paramount PCC2000 In-Floor Cleaning system for 6 months

    What type of decking and what Pebble Sheen color did you select?
    Thanks for the info on the cleaning system.
    We are doing Light Walnut Travertine pavers, and Blue Surf Pebble sheen. I looked at your build and your pool is beautiful!
    Pool Area 510 Sq. ft, 94 Ln ft. 3'6" to 6', 18,120 Gal, Pebble Sheen, Pentair Clean & Clear plus 420 sq ft Cartridge, Pool pump Sta Rite Intellipro VS, Paramount pump sta Rite 1 HP Max E Pro, Water feature Sta- Rite 2 HP max E pro, PCC-2000 Cleaning & Circulation system, Rainbow Chlorinator O/L, Ultra Uv, Paramount Clear O3 Ozone system, Sta Rite Max E Therm 400k Btu heater. 2 Paraglo Multi Color LED, Paramount Paralevel.

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    Re: New pool owner in TX

    Thanks! Travertine pavers will be nice. Please post pictures of the finished Pebble Sheen. We are all anxious to see more examples of Blue Surf as it is a new product.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmusick View Post
    Thanks for the info on the cleaning system.
    We are doing Light Walnut Travertine pavers, and Blue Surf Pebble sheen. I looked at your build and your pool is beautiful!
    15k gallon IG, 36' x 15', built April 2015, Pebble Sheen
    Pentair CCP420 cartridge filter, Pentair EasyTouch 8 controller, Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm 400K Heater
    Sta-Rite IntelliPro VS pump, Sta-Rite Max-E-Pro 1HP & 2HP pumps
    Paramount PCC2000 ICS, TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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