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Thread: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

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    0707384's Avatar
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    Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Hello, I hope you can see my profile... let me know if not. Thanks for the help in the past, those issues resolved.

    Replaced water in late May or early June due to calcium levels out of this world! Using Taylor 2006 teat kit to report readings. The issue; I am burning through Muriatic Acid by the quart/gallon weekly to hold the PH down.

    FC = 3.8 (turned down generator a bit as I increased the Cyanuric Acid, SWG running about 50%)
    TA = 110
    PH = 7.7 (had lowered the day before to be in ~7.4 range, note it took a LOT to get to the 7.4 range, PH can spike quickly... off chart!)
    CH = 260 (New water...)
    CYA = 45/47 (added stabilizer to push to TFP recommendation 60/70, the 45/47 was established slowly, over a month)
    Temp = ~90

    Any ideas what may be causing the high levels of MA to be required?
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Very likely the combination of your high TA and the SWG. SWGs tend to raise the pH quickly especially if the TA is high enough.

    Your first possible solution is to lower your TA. How low? Only your pool knows that. So follow the directions in PoolSchool for lowering TA using the acid/aeration method. Try to get down to 70ppm and see if you can reach a stable pH of 7.6. You can very safely get down as low as 50ppm and be ok as long as you target a pH above 7.6. See if lowering the TA gets your pH more stable. If you're still consuming acid then there are other tricks we can try.

    Cheers!


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    A few things cause PH to rise. Aeration, waterfalls, bubblers, etc, SWG and high TA. You can turn off any source of aeration and you can lower your TA. Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity Lower your TA to 80 or so and see if your PH stabilizes. If not continue to lower it slowly until it stabilizes. Down to 50 is OK. If it doesn't stabilize by 60 then check back and we can work on other options.
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    First, how are you testing that you show CYA 47 and pH 7.7? Those are not numbers I can get with my K2006.

    As you are adding the acid has your TA moved?
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Added acid to lower PH to suggested range. Running waterfall tonight and pump to aerate (with SWG turned off to prevent chlorination). Will report back tomorrow... Tim5055, hummm, good question but that is what I came up with. I'll retest in the AM. Following pool school recommendation.
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0707384 View Post
    Added acid to lower PH to suggested range. Running waterfall tonight and pump to aerate (with SWG turned off to prevent chlorination). Will report back tomorrow... Tim5055, hummm, good question but that is what I came up with. I'll retest in the AM. Following pool school recommendation.
    What test kit are you using? None of the recommended kits will provide numbers like that......
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Taylor K-2006... The PH 7.7 is not a number on the kit but the color looked like it was between the 7.6 and 7.8. The CYA was ~45 but it could have been called something more, it's somewhat suggestive what you call the number when the water level is between two numbers. What particular numbers look funny???? Maybe I did something wrong, I will pay close attention in the AM when I retest.
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    We just normally round up to the next whole number. This is fairly important for CYA because the scale is logarithmic, so halfway is not 45. Use 50 for your CYA number.
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Good Morning All!!! Retested pool this morning and the TA didn't drop a bit after running waterfall and pump all night with the PH at 7.2. Results are as follows and yes, I did add stabilizer the other day to get the CYA up.
    Temp = 87
    FC = 5.6 (turned down SWG to 3.0, in my opinion from past experience a nice problem to have)
    PH = 7.6 (up from last nights level of ~7.3)
    TA = 110 (as mentioned, pump ran all night with SWG off, pretty tight system, almost NO aeration from pump... no bubbles at all in system, waterfall on all night)
    CH = 250 (new water in late May)
    CYA = 90 (About 10 over my target but not complaining given I had heck due to heated water not holding FC in the past)

    Bottom line, swimming party today, son's and grandsons birthdays. Maybe that will help the TA and will certainly drop the FC. I think I need to continue to aerate with the waterfall and perhaps add some sort of aeration unit. The bad news is, last year I had added a PVC sprayer (I made) to an outlet jet to "cool the pool" which was just simply to hot to comfortably swim. At this point, I'm guessing that also added a fair amount of aeration to the pool that I had not thought about. Now I wish I'd kept it. : ( (Live and learn)

    Any suggestions? Thanks all, you are terrific at what you do and had it not been for your past advice, I'd have filled in the pool by now.

    BTW, was at a pool store the other day (filler valve), lady very frustrated talking to the clerk. I went through the same issue she had and so I waited outside for her. Told her, the stuff she was buying was an issue (more and more shock adding calc in AZ, not good) and gave her your web site (written info). Told her it sounded like she needed to SLAM the pool and suggested she have the hubby use site. She thanked me and headed off, I hope she got the issue fixed.
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    I did the same thing with a woman yesterday at our local pool store as well. I walked out with a pool thermometer, she had bottles of junk. Hope she visits TFP.

    As for your pH that keeps creeping-up, you probably already know that an SWG can have that effect right? The aeration within the unit itself raising pH? I hadn't followed your thread before, but wanted to make sure. Have a nice weekend! Enjoy your pool parties.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Just so we're clear, your TA is lowered from adding acid NOT from aeration. Aeration simply raises your pH without raising the TA.

    So, when you drop your pH with addition of muriatic acid, you should measure a drop TA. PoolMath can tell you how much the TA will change based on an acid addition in the "Effects of Adding Chemicals" section.

    If you're not measuring a TA drop, then something is either wrong with your testing or else your fill water has some insanely high TA. Please check your fill water TA.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Just so we're clear, your TA is lowered from adding acid NOT from aeration. Aeration simply raises your pH without raising the TA.

    So, when you drop your pH with addition of muriatic acid, you should measure a drop TA. PoolMath can tell you how much the TA will change based on an acid addition in the "Effects of Adding Chemicals" section.

    If you're not measuring a TA drop, then something is either wrong with your testing or else your fill water has some insanely high TA. Please check your fill water TA.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Wow, I didn't catch that perspective and or fact before. BTW I use good old Tucson water to fill the pool.... just for grins I am going to measure the TA level to see what it is.
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0707384 View Post
    Wow, I didn't catch that perspective and or fact before. BTW I use good old Tucson water to fill the pool.... just for grins I am going to measure the TA level to see what it is.
    I'm out on the east side. Where we live the fill water TA is ~120ppm and pH is above 8.0.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    All, things seem to have gotten better... current measurements are;
    FC = 4.0
    TA = 70 (Down from the 110 range, stopped aeration (WF) for now, will monitor MA use, hope it dropped significantly!)
    PH = 7.5 (Will monitor but suspect I'm cooking with gas again!!) (As in MA use may drop, will know over the next week.)
    CH = 250
    CYA = 90 (I suspect this will drop over time as the pool gets used etc. at any rate, it seems to be holding FC quite well, SWG running at 30%, pump runs ~7 hrs daily.)
    Looks like I'm in a good spot again, I learned a bit again by using TFP and I really appreciate the help.

    On another note; the birthday pool bash was fun! Unfortunately one of our elders that attended had to make a trip to the hospital, turns out the beer and heat didn't mix well with him and he wasn't participating in the swimming to cool him down. All was well with him by 11:00 PM and he was released.

    Thanks again!!
    2001, 14k gal, SWG T-9 25K cell, IG dark pebble, 1 HP WF WFE-4, Pent CC250 cartridge w/ PAP150 pent filter, Kreepy, Large rock waterfall .75 WF WFE-3 no filter on WF. Tucson AZ. "New" Pentr cartridge and filter in 5/2015. Pumps are less than 2 yrs old say 2013/2014. W-Fall cycled 2X wkly, used when swim. 1 to 2 mthly. Water replaced 5/2015.

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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    You may want to up your FC just a tad, the recommended amount for an SWG for a CYA of 80 is 4-6, so a CYA of 90 would require it to be a bit above that.

    Glad you got the TA down and got to enjoy your pool!
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Now THAT's a party! Glad everything is working out good.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: Adding acid like crazy... any suggestions?

    Monitor your pH daily (since it is easy-peasy to do it) and keep track. You'll just have to work at it a bit to find the sweet spot for your TA that keeps your pH from drifting too high too quickly.
    ----Chris----
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