Hayward super pump won't start up.

[danpik]

It still could be a 240 volt circuit and they are only switching one side of the 240. Not illegal, but not the best practice either. It does leave a live leg at the load that can nail you if you are unaware. Can you post pics of the inside of the breaker box? . The inside of the breaker box will help answer that.

Edit...Just looked at the pics again. Can you indicate to us which conduit goes where. I see one out the top that most likely feeds the receptacle above it, one going back into the wall and one out the bottom. BTW, that switch should be replaced. It looks like it had some pretty significant heat damage.

Mike, I am in Allegany (Olean, St Bonaventure, almost on the PA line)

 

[gamerasian]

OK Till I get the pics.. just wanted to share this.. in the basement is the main circuit breaker for just the pool and next to it is the timer( I guess for the pump).. the wiring goes out where we see here( I opened up) Few wires go up where there are two outlets.. and few go down to the motor..

NO the pump doesn't plug into an outlet.. these wires going down are directly connected to the motor.. I checked the two outlets above for voltage and the reading with the simple voltage tester and the 110V lights up.

Hope this helps.. Will take the pics and post them..Thanks

 

[danpik]

OK, I kind of suspected that the wires from the back of that box were from the breaker panel, and the line out the bottom went to the motor. How many wires are in the bundle with the wire nut on it? It looks like there are 3.

 

[mgarf33]

It still could be a 240 volt circuit and they are only switching one side of the 240. Not illegal, but not the best practice either.

Are you certain this is legal?
I know electromechanical switch controls are ok to break one leg, but wouldn't this be considered a means of disconnect? Typically means of disconnect shall completely de energize high voltage to a circuit and be located within sight and ready access of the appliance it serves.

 

[danpik]

Are you certain this is legal?
I know electromechanical switch controls are ok to break one leg, but wouldn't this be considered a means of disconnect? Typically means of disconnect shall completely de energize high voltage to a circuit and be located within sight and ready access of the appliance it serves.

The argument could be that the breaker is the means of disconnect. In fact, in most cases now (not residential) the means of disconnect HAS to be able to be locked out.

 

[gamerasian]

Want to thank you all esp Mr. Dan and Mr. Mike.. We realized that we have very little knowledge about the circuits and electric currents and it would be better, faster and safer to call an electrician.. more over I am tired of mixing ( )the chemicals manually as dnt want the new liner to go bad.. cant wait to and enjoy the new pool.. Thanks for your time :super:

 

[danpik]

Hope you can get it resolved. A good electrician should be able to figure out what is going on there fairly quickly. Don't be surprised if he suggests pulling new wires as what is there does not look like it was done by a professional.

 

[lefty51]

Hi gamerasian, I know it will cost to have an electrician come out, but if your uncomfortable working around electricity it's safer that way.

Looking at your pics, to me it looks like they split a 240 feed into two 120s' at the box. the 4 wires coming in from the back(from the breaker)seem to indicate that.

The black and red wires I am guessing are the 2 120 legs with the white wire I will call the neutral. I see an unshielded ground wire (hidden behind white wire) going to wire nut which is ground.

They have taken one of the 120 legs(the black wire) and the neutral (white wire) up to the outlet on top giving you a 120 outlet. They than ran the neutral back down to use on pump circuit. The problem is they have a black wire returning from outlet which is tied to ground circuit (wire nut). I assume that's the ground for outlet.

They then have the other 120 leg (red wire) running to pump with neutral (white wire) along with ground circuit (green wire from wire nut), thus giving you a 120 circuit to pump.

Then it gets confusing at pump end because you have two black wires and one white. One is hot (120), the other neutral and the other is ground (I'm guessing). But which is which. Sometimes people will do that if they only have a 240 circuit and need a 120 and don't want to run a new circuit.

If what I am saying is correct and you want to run pump at 240 then you need to eliminate outlet circuit. But first things first, you need to find out what those wires coming from breaker are supplying, 120 or 240

I got ahead of myself, the red wire goes to the switch then the black wire goes to the pump, thus the two black and one white wire at pump end.
I can only guess, one black wire is hot, one is ground, and white is neutral

 

[danpik]

Lefty
I concur with your assessment of the power routing. My concern is what is really under that wire nut. my concern is if they tied that into the other leg of the 240 and sent it to the motor. If it is wired as a MWBC and sending 120 to the motor, the GFCI protection will trip as soon as someone used the convenience receptacle. Either way, it needs to be addressed by a competent pool electrician. If they are using one of the black wires as a ground, then the only thing correct in that situation is that it is insulated. My fear is that is what they did as the motor on these pumps only have 3 connection points including the ground screw and there are three leads with hooks on them.

 

[lefty51]

I agree, if your the one who did it and are the only one who deals with it, I guess it's okay. BUT, we all know what happens in the real world. I don't always follow the rules, but when it comes to things like this I try to follow code. As someone pointed out earlier, the ground is green for a reason. There is nothing like discovering one half of a 240 circuit is still hot, when you thought it was dead

I won't say who , but someone tried to tap the 240 lead to my pump to put a GFCI outlet at my pump house and all it did was keep tripping the GFCI breaker. WHOOPS !

 

[gamerasian]

So here is the update: I had been very ignorant and it was a very stupid mistake that I was making.. So next time anybody newbie has a problem like mine..u experts can suggest this first!! There is a timer to the motor of the pump which I was not aware of :grin:.. So when the electrician came looked at the breaker and the timer..he showed me how to turn it on.. And there was power supply to these wires... Now luckily I had a free coupon for this electrician and I didn't have to pay him anything from my pocket.. Long story short.. I did learn a lot of things while he was there..

the wires have 120 v and they r incorrectly wired.. So there is one hot , one neutral and one ground wire...

Now I am going to change the switch and the whip myself and thinking to buy the motor from the craigslist..

What do you guys suggest , is it a good idea to buy a used motor? if yes how can I make sure it is working even if it is not hooked up to the pool anymore.. Or should I just buy from Amazon - Amazon.com : Hayward SPX1607Z1M Motor Replacement for Select Hayward Pump, 1-HP : Swimming Pool And Spa Supplies : Patio, Lawn Garden

Thank you lefty.. U explained it so well and now I have some confidence to DIY..

 

[lefty51]

whoops, I forgot to check back on your thread, sorry

Don't beat yourself up, I sometimes miss the most obvious thing (maybe cause it's obvious ) That's the hard thing about internet repairs, not being there. That's why we ask for pics. In hindsight had we thought to have you post pics from point A all the way through to point Z, someone would have noticed the timer I'm sure.

The folks that where helping you sound like they are well versed in electricity, if not in the business. That's what is great about this site, there are any number of real pros on subjects that are not necessary directly related to pools and are more than willing to help and share.

Ok.... enough about how great TFP is

Where exactly was the timer in relationship to the junction box and the pump ? And did the electrician give you any advice as to what to do with the wiring ?
I'm wondering if the switch is really necessary in light of the timer.

As far as the motor, I guess it is bad ? I personally would buy a new one, but if money is a factor and you can "test drive" the motor, I guess used wouldn't be bad. Just make sure it is a motor that will work with your pump without having to "modify" it to fit.

This post should bring your thread back to the top and I'm sure one of the pros will spot this and weigh in on the best course. Here's hoping your up and pumping in no time

 

[danpik]

As to the used motor...unless there is a guarantee, I would pass unless I could test it.

As for the wiring, There should be a Black (hot) from the switch to the motor, a white from the neutral bar in the panel or from a white wire in the junction box to the motor and a green from the ground bar in the panel or bare ground wire in the junction box. The ground wire from the junction box to the motor has to be an insulated wire and colored green to meet code. All wires from the junction box also have to be THWN rated wire.

Did the electrician test the motor to see if it worked?

 

[mgarf33]

Anyone notice the anomaly in the first post first pic???

Edit:
Nevermind, just read through the posts, danpik pointed out in post #7 the voltage selection jumper was up-side-down.

 

[gamerasian]

whoops, I forgot to check back on your thread, sorry



Where exactly was the timer in relationship to the junction box and the pump ? And did the electrician give you any advice as to what to do with the wiring ?
I'm wondering if the switch is really necessary in light of the timer.

The timer is next to the circuit breaker in the basement. This breaker is separate just for the pool. So we would need the switch as in case of an emergency its would be more accessible. I am hoping too for the motor to start as have not enjoyed the pool even 1 day even aft spending sooo many $$$ in renovating it. Also little worried about any more such surprises before the pool becomes functional..

- - - Updated - - -

Did the electrician test the motor to see if it worked?

No he did not see the motor.

 

[lefty51]

Anyone notice the anomaly in the first post first pic???

Edit:
Nevermind, just read through the posts, danpik pointed out in post #7 the voltage selection jumper was up-side-down.

Help him out here fellows. I looked at that jumper and I don't know how it should be oriented. Is it jumpered for 110 or 220(I know I'm old school, that's what we always called voltages). Does he need to change it if it feeding 110 to the pump. I'm hoping his pump is good so he can get to swimming !