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Thread: Zen of a balanced pool

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    Zen of a balanced pool

    I feel I am getting close to a stable chemistry (Taylor K-2006 & K-1766). I am chasing a rising PH but only need to add every few days now. I may back off on pump and swg run time some to see if i can still keep FC in range without driving up PH. The TA is up there and I have done at least 3 cycles of PH to 7 and aerate so far. It does not seem to have an effect other than the rising PH. We have no rain to catch and use as replacement water unfortunately.

    Suggestions?

    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Your TA is what is driving the pH rise for the most part. You need to get your TA down and, since you have a SWG, you probably need to get it down to the low end of the range. After getting it down, you can then target a slightly higher pH (don't go below 7.6) and you should see the pH stabilize better. If that does not work to your desired effect, then you can consider adding 50ppm borates to help with the pH rise. But, primarily, the culprit is your high TA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Some typos in your spreadsheet -

    It's "Combined Chloramines" for CC, not "Complete Chlorine". Also it's "Hypochlorite" not "hyperchlorite"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Can you also measure your fill water as well? pH, TA and CH (no need to measure chlorine or CYA)
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Measured from the hose.

    PH 7.2
    TA 225 ppm
    CH 225 ppm

    We are on top of the high quality limestone in North America, the plant is just two miles away.
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmelton View Post
    Measured from the hose.

    PH 7.2
    TA 225 ppm
    CH 225 ppm

    We are on top of the high quality limestone in North America, the plant is just two miles away.
    Wow. Yeah, that would explain it. My water is fairly low TA (~100ppm or so) but higher CH (~280ppm on a good day). It is possible to pretreat the water to lower the TA a bit, but it's a royal pain (50 gal plastic drums, acid, aerators, back ache, etc).

    Your going to need to drop your TA as much as you can with acid/aeration cycles and then get a cover for the pool to hold down the evaporation so as to minimize your refills. Other than that, you can start doing rain dances, but I hear those aren't very effective


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Is there a formula to estimate the amount of acid and aeration time to lower TA? I can do it experimentally, but don't want to be a slave to testing if it is not necessary.
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmelton View Post
    Is there a formula to estimate the amount of acid and aeration time to lower TA?
    Not that I know of since it would depend heavily on the amount and type of aeration. Best method is to drop the pH to 7 and then aerate up to 7.5-7.6, then drop and repeat. The amount of CO2 out gassing is greatest at low pH so there's not a lot of CO2 removal from 7.6 to 8.0.

    Test the TA before and after acid to see how much you lowered it and then record the time it takes for the pH to go from 7 to 7.5. That will give you an estimate for how long this will take.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Off to Lowes for MA. Thanks

    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Dropped the PH to 7.0 last night and ran the fountain all night. TA dropped to 175 this morning, PH rose to 7.6. Added MA to drop PH to 7.0 again this morning and will keep the fountain going.
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    S1ngram's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    I used a submersible pump with a garden hose size outlet for pumping water. Instead of a garden hose, I used a wand style garden sprayer. It has a head that could be angled however I wanted, so I angled it into the water using the spray selection that created the most bubbles. I put the contraption on my steps and fastened it to the pool railing with a velcro strap. It took about a month of aeration to lower the TA from 150 to 60. If you aerate 24/7 it will probably go faster. I didn't catch on and do that until the final 2 weeks.
    27' round Seaspray Evolution, AG, 17,100 gallons, Pump: Hayward Power-Flo Matrix Dual Speed 1.5 hp, Filter: Hayward Pro Series High Rate Sand Filter, June 18, 2014, Kreepy Krauley Lil Shark, TF-100 test kit, Intex Krystal Clear Saltwater System

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    CC is combined chlorine.

    That is a nice TA drop. Here is a pool school article with more info, Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Lowered PH to 7.0 morning and evening, good aeration running 24 hours a day (hope the neighbors don't mind).

    Tonight's numbers:

    FC 3.0 (added 64oz of 8.25 just to make sure it doesn't drop too much, 103 degrees here today)
    PH 7.6 (added 40oz MA just like this morning)
    TA 125ppm! Woo hoo! come on down, your the next contestant... whoops, squirrel!

    Working from home tomorrow so I should be able to check midday as well.

    The big issue will be that my fill water is so high on TA. No rain in sight. Loosing 1/2 inch a day to evap and a slow drip I need to fix (flex PVC I think).
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Just a word of caution - be careful to test before and after with the acid additions. As the alkalinity drops, you will need slightly less acid each time to get it down to 7.0. PoolMath should give you the correct amount of acid to add if you give it an accurate TA value.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    I use PoolMath every time! Need to load it and my spreadsheet on the phone though, that is always on.
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    TA is down to 75ppm, PH at 7.2. Woo Hoo! Now to see if it holds in this high heat. I had to add 2" of my high TA fill water yesterday.
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    You might want to invest in a pool cover. It's a big expense, but it may be worth it to keep the evaporation down. Also, if you get the opaque kind that blocks out all the light, then you can cut down any FC loss you have from sunlight significantly. Just a thought.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Even in my climate, which is certainly cooler and less sunlight than TX, I've noticed a significant difference in water loss to evaporation when I added a solar cover this year versus no cover at all last year. I was topping off the pool once every couple weeks last year (with similar precipitation levels) and I have added 2 inches of water once this summer (Apr-Today). It helps that we have had fairly regular rain showers in May-July but the same can be said for last year. The other side of it is that I've gotten the pool 8-10 degrees warmer than last year with zero outside heat source so far. In your case, you're probably wanting to keep the pool cooler about now. If you get a cover, keep it on when not in use during the day and remove it at night to help it cool. The opposite of what I do, ALWAYS on at night to retain heat. Our fill water is also high in TA (about 200) so I know the feeling of regretting topping off the pool and especially my hot tub.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    D'oh! I have a cover but have not used it. It is a 24' round pool though, a bit difficult to put on and off I would think. New search term to find appropriate threads!
    Intex Ultraframe, 24' x 52", 1.5hp Matrix 2 speed, 21" Hayward sand filter + Intex Ozone Saltwater System, through-wall skimmer, 1.5" PVC return fountain. Taylor K-2006 & K-1766 test kits.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Zen of a balanced pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmelton View Post
    D'oh! I have a cover but have not used it. It is a 24' round pool though, a bit difficult to put on and off I would think. New search term to find appropriate threads!
    Plenty of awesome DIY cover reels and holders for AGPs here on TFP.

    I wish I could cover my pool, but it's sort of impossible. The downside of a free form, in-ground with waterfalls and spillway.


    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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