Actually if you did a little re plumbing, you could do away with the second pump and run everything thru one. But that's a different story than what we are talking about here.
Heater will only work once per day
- Thread starter gilbee
- Start date
Re: What are my options for suction side leak detection? DIY?
Since it's the spa, why don't you drain the spa and pressure test the line to be sure? At least that will confirm the where the leak is and if you're really lucky, you might find the leaks exact location by water seeping out somewhere.
Since it's the spa, why don't you drain the spa and pressure test the line to be sure? At least that will confirm the where the leak is and if you're really lucky, you might find the leaks exact location by water seeping out somewhere.
Re: What are my options for suction side leak detection? DIY?
How would I do this? I'm sure it's this line because when I isolate this pipe to the pump I pull air, where no other pipe causes this to occur.
How would I do this? I'm sure it's this line because when I isolate this pipe to the pump I pull air, where no other pipe causes this to occur.
Re: What are my options for suction side leak detection? DIY?
first off, why do you have a garden hose connected to your pump return line? (2) the filter pump next to the filter is that the 2h.p. 2 speed motor you described (3) you need to replace the filter gauge or remove that one and verify it is not plugged up ,and that the needle falls to zero when pump is off, (4)when you mention the difference between lines when isolated to spa vs pool, you said the isolated spa suction line has noticeable air or that you pull air is this difference noticed when looking through the clear pump lid? or something you noticed at the pool or spa itself from a return line? also when you say it pulls air,do you mean after line is isolated (and i will assume you are making the observation when viewing through the clear pump lid ) what had been a fully involved pump basket area when seen through pump lid, (meaning water completely filled entire pump basket to the top of the lid and had minimal air under lid when isolated on pool side) but when isolated to spa line you described it pulled air, did you mean air was entering in so fast that the pump pressure fell off so to speak, and what had been a full basket area with water movement on pool side, now has pulled air to the point the pump loses prime and maybe a slight trickle tries to fall out of the inlet pipe in front of pump as viewed through lid into the pump basket ,indicating a struggle to regain prime, or do you mean it pulls air and that you mean the inside of the lid basically has about the same volume amount of water,only there are more air bubbles swirling around top of basket area compared to pool side,and also does the valve change from pool to spa line make the pump louder on spa side when you notice the additional pull of air are the floor spa drain grates in place,complete,unbroken, or are they broken, missing,or only partially able to cover the opening and have you modified any thing prior to noticing this current problem, im assuming this is fairly recent ,and up until you started to notice something not right,everything before this happened had worked when you isolated the spa to heat it and if you wanted to use it later it still worked fine, compared to what you describe as only able to use spa once a day,and experiencing heater malfunction later in the eve when trying to use spa at night as usual but now no heat, which has progressively gotten to where now heater will not come on at all on spa side give me a better time line of maybe how everything had functioned for years without any problem until two weeks ago when this or that began or maybe how it really never was consistent but rather also i want you to tell me the filter pressure when pool is isolated from spa,the normal pool side as you put it when you describe no air pull like spa side,then isolate the spa side,and tell me the pressure on the filter there to...lets start with these things 1st, before you resort to digging holes n stuff
first off, why do you have a garden hose connected to your pump return line? (2) the filter pump next to the filter is that the 2h.p. 2 speed motor you described (3) you need to replace the filter gauge or remove that one and verify it is not plugged up ,and that the needle falls to zero when pump is off, (4)when you mention the difference between lines when isolated to spa vs pool, you said the isolated spa suction line has noticeable air or that you pull air is this difference noticed when looking through the clear pump lid? or something you noticed at the pool or spa itself from a return line? also when you say it pulls air,do you mean after line is isolated (and i will assume you are making the observation when viewing through the clear pump lid ) what had been a fully involved pump basket area when seen through pump lid, (meaning water completely filled entire pump basket to the top of the lid and had minimal air under lid when isolated on pool side) but when isolated to spa line you described it pulled air, did you mean air was entering in so fast that the pump pressure fell off so to speak, and what had been a full basket area with water movement on pool side, now has pulled air to the point the pump loses prime and maybe a slight trickle tries to fall out of the inlet pipe in front of pump as viewed through lid into the pump basket ,indicating a struggle to regain prime, or do you mean it pulls air and that you mean the inside of the lid basically has about the same volume amount of water,only there are more air bubbles swirling around top of basket area compared to pool side,and also does the valve change from pool to spa line make the pump louder on spa side when you notice the additional pull of air are the floor spa drain grates in place,complete,unbroken, or are they broken, missing,or only partially able to cover the opening and have you modified any thing prior to noticing this current problem, im assuming this is fairly recent ,and up until you started to notice something not right,everything before this happened had worked when you isolated the spa to heat it and if you wanted to use it later it still worked fine, compared to what you describe as only able to use spa once a day,and experiencing heater malfunction later in the eve when trying to use spa at night as usual but now no heat, which has progressively gotten to where now heater will not come on at all on spa side give me a better time line of maybe how everything had functioned for years without any problem until two weeks ago when this or that began or maybe how it really never was consistent but rather also i want you to tell me the filter pressure when pool is isolated from spa,the normal pool side as you put it when you describe no air pull like spa side,then isolate the spa side,and tell me the pressure on the filter there to...lets start with these things 1st, before you resort to digging holes n stuff
Re: What are my options for suction side leak detection? DIY?
Because I have a cartridge filter, this appears to be a common thing with this type of setup, it allows you to remove water in a high water situation since there is no other valves that will allow water to leave the filtration system.
The pump next to the filter is a 2hp 2speed, the other pump next to it (closer to heater) is also a 2hp, but is switched manually and does not pump water through the filter or the heater, it is meant to be turned on when you want extra jets functioning in the spa only, and pulls water from the second main drain in the spa for this purpose.
Gauge has been replaced for quite some time, that is an old picture I had on my phone. Gauge is fine.
I see the air through the pump lid. Upon immediately isolating to spa drain, the pump basket top fills with a bunch of bubbles, but then turns into more air displacing the water within minutes. within 10 minutes, you can see the water pouring in from the suction side and going to the return side the level is so low, and shortly after this the flow becomes low enough that anything flow related (heater, salt cell) cite flow issues and cease to work properly. So yes, when isolating the spa line, air is introduced into the pump basket, and eventually enough accumulates to cause the pump to struggle keeping prime.
I do not notice any additional noises when I isolate the spa drain.
We've only owned the house since March of this year. When we moved in, we found the heater did not work at all. We called a home warranty servicer who was about to replace the heater as he couldn't get parts for it, and when he reseated the wires to the ignition module, it started working again...so no new heater under warranty for us. We used the heater a few times between that time and a month later when we had the pool replastered. We never tried to use it for prolonged periods of time before the plaster job, but I did notice the air introduction before that, so I don't think this is a new issue, just one that the previous owners didn't notice/didn't pursue. Not sure where the confusion is, but the heater WILL come on on the spa side (I originally said once per day, but I now know it will come back on if I adequately re-prime the pump and wait a few minutes), but when the pump begins to completely lose its prime as we discussed, obviously at that point the flow sensor is tripping the heater off. I suspect this has been this way for quite some time, but since the heater apparently was not working at all for the previous owners (since our service guy had to get it working again), they had no reason to isolate the spa drain with no working heater.
I can gather this stuff, but at this point I'm thinking I'm going to call a leak detection place; I know what pipe it's in, and if they can tell me where in the pipe so I can decide whether or not to abandon the drain and re-plumb to dual purpose the other one, it will be money well spent over digging holes in the ground.
Because I have a cartridge filter, this appears to be a common thing with this type of setup, it allows you to remove water in a high water situation since there is no other valves that will allow water to leave the filtration system.
The pump next to the filter is a 2hp 2speed, the other pump next to it (closer to heater) is also a 2hp, but is switched manually and does not pump water through the filter or the heater, it is meant to be turned on when you want extra jets functioning in the spa only, and pulls water from the second main drain in the spa for this purpose.
Gauge has been replaced for quite some time, that is an old picture I had on my phone. Gauge is fine.
I see the air through the pump lid. Upon immediately isolating to spa drain, the pump basket top fills with a bunch of bubbles, but then turns into more air displacing the water within minutes. within 10 minutes, you can see the water pouring in from the suction side and going to the return side the level is so low, and shortly after this the flow becomes low enough that anything flow related (heater, salt cell) cite flow issues and cease to work properly. So yes, when isolating the spa line, air is introduced into the pump basket, and eventually enough accumulates to cause the pump to struggle keeping prime.
I do not notice any additional noises when I isolate the spa drain.
Spa drains are fine, new in fact.
We've only owned the house since March of this year. When we moved in, we found the heater did not work at all. We called a home warranty servicer who was about to replace the heater as he couldn't get parts for it, and when he reseated the wires to the ignition module, it started working again...so no new heater under warranty for us. We used the heater a few times between that time and a month later when we had the pool replastered. We never tried to use it for prolonged periods of time before the plaster job, but I did notice the air introduction before that, so I don't think this is a new issue, just one that the previous owners didn't notice/didn't pursue. Not sure where the confusion is, but the heater WILL come on on the spa side (I originally said once per day, but I now know it will come back on if I adequately re-prime the pump and wait a few minutes), but when the pump begins to completely lose its prime as we discussed, obviously at that point the flow sensor is tripping the heater off. I suspect this has been this way for quite some time, but since the heater apparently was not working at all for the previous owners (since our service guy had to get it working again), they had no reason to isolate the spa drain with no working heater.
I can gather this stuff, but at this point I'm thinking I'm going to call a leak detection place; I know what pipe it's in, and if they can tell me where in the pipe so I can decide whether or not to abandon the drain and re-plumb to dual purpose the other one, it will be money well spent over digging holes in the ground.
Why do you say it's wrong? The "older pressure wall mount cleaner" is still in use (I have a polaris 360 that I am very happy with), so if I cap that I will have a new problem (my polaris not working). I'm aware that I could be having a leak at the inlet of the pump, but if that were true, I'd have air all of the time, not just when I turn the valve closest to the pump so that the far left pipe is the only source.
Why is the usage of the jandy three way valves for the pool main drain and skimmers "wrong" as opposed to just different from what you've seen before? With the three way valves I have in the configuration I have them, I can open any one or combination of lines on that side of the pump, so what exactly is wrong with this?
i said "appears" and "could" which indicate uncertainty as to what may, or may not be still connected to, just an observation based on the type of plumbing configuration thats in place which was common to a type of cleaner that mostly swam around the pool with a whip attachment that has become discontinued and obsolete technology popular in the 70's-early 80'sthe "jandy porpoise" usually polaris pressure cleaners utilize a booster pump independent of the pool equipment, your connection relies on distributing water normally meant to go through the filter 1st, right back to the cleaner instead , im sure a portion of the water may go through the filter, but as it looks to me knowing what i know now,you only run the cleaner randomly because it involves having to turn the jandy valve to send pressure to the cleaner manually,to operate it,if you left the cleaner on 24-7 you would never filter your water,because the resistance of travel is less having to pass through cleaner line and would seek the path of the cleaner line, so although it it may work as you say,it is not the proper way a polaris pressure cleaner was designed ,that much i do know,somebody more or less retroed the polaris to operate on the obsolete system design of the 70s theres a reason why pressure cleaner technology that shared pressure with the pools filtration system became obsolete, it was the ineficient way that one had to sacrafice for the other either your gonna run the cleaner and bypass the filter, or your going to filter the water and not run the cleaner,no brainer to see why it was phased out
You also said "wrong" and "not right" a whole lot in one picture, without any real explanation other than...well, you didn't provide any at all.
The nice thing about the Jandy three way valves is that they are proportional...so I can set a much smaller amount of pressure to the polaris to achieve the correct RPMs compared to what goes to the filter. Further, I encourage you to go check out the Polaris line...the 380 is as you describe and requires a booster pump, where the 360 IS designed to not use a booster pump. Here's a link to the polaris site talking about not needing a booster pump for this particular model, maybe you should go check it out so that you can know something new: http://www.polarispool.com/pressure/polaris-360
The 360 and requisite plumbing is still a VERY popular line and method of doing things, and I leave mine in 24/7...my control relays run the pump on high for 6 hours where the polaris has enough pressure to operate correctly, and after 6 hours, the remaining time my pump runs on low, and the polaris does not get enough pressure based on the proportion set on the valve to operate, so it sits in place until the next day. This pool was built in the early 2000s with this type of cleaner in mind. I understand it's not what you're used to, but it works just fine for me and thousands of other pool owners, and my water is filtered just fine and balanced and crystal clear, and I can attest that the cartridges in the filter do indeed catch exactly what you'd expect since I am the one who cleans them.
i have been a repair tech in phoenix az for 25 years i dont clean pools and do a few repairs on the weekends maybe, i do only repair and remodel work 40 plus hours a week in case i have not pointed that out yet,i am trying to help you here so understand when i send a picture to you that says the valves are on the suction side although they will work and until i pointed this out to you,would never had known that they are not plumbed correctly,period end of story
each of the 3 lines to the right of the spa line, should have each have there own two way valve,not the 3 way valve configuration that exists now ideally you would like to have the ability to shut off or turn on or regulate distribution of suction to maximize the particular device that may require maximum suction like the skimmer if a lot of leafs blown into the pool ,so you would look at the 3 lines and know to turn the pool drain off,and turn the other line off (not certain what it controls) and leaving the skimmer wide open to skim the top of the water surface,by the way is there a wier door in skimmer throat ? if not you would be wise to install one, the little door that flops around in the throat alot of skimmers have missing or broken doors and the difference is like night aNd day when it has the door as far as how effective it is at skimming the surface of debris. normally i would have looked at the pool to see a cleaner hooked up but i cant do that here,this is why i have been asking all these questions this has become my pet project so, its not like i give my knowledge of swimming pools away to everyone, and sit on the computer all day, i registered on this site the other day out of boredom everything i have said or illistrated during our correspondance so far has the advantage of being accurate info that is spot on, my approach to swimming pool repair also has the sting of having to enlighten homeowners as to the true state of disrepair or improper work done by other unqualified butchers that are trying to learn this business by messing up the pools of unsuspecting trusting homeowners that placed there confidence in there ability to solve there problem, before my involvement i dont have a crystal ball here, while your cleaner will work without the booster pump, it is doing so by turning the pool pump into its booster pump, how much distribution of water does the cleaner require? does the valve have to bypass the filter completely to provide enough pressure to run the cleaner, or is that why you have the two speed 2h.p. monster for a filter pump hi speed for cleaner pressure? lo speed for filtraion and heating spa? its unusual to say the least to have a 2 h.p.2 speed when you have a jet pump thats 2 hp im curious with what your understanding is for the reason to have it that way, or am i on the right track about the cleaner having to do with the set up this way a more common h.p. for the filter motor when a jet pump exist would be a single speed 1 h.p. the pool at my home has a spa, but i dont have the jet pump, it shares a 1.5 h.p. motor for both which im not crazy about , overkill for circulation purposes which 90% of motor run time is used for, i have thought about 2speed or variable speed upgrade for cost savings on electric bill, so what way do you utilize the 2 speed for? just curious without having the ability to be there to see for myself as far as the cleaner line is concerned,some of my remodel projects on older pools that had 1.5 inch cleaner pressure lines, i would convert to a dedicated suction line, and be able to run a suction cleaner,clever little trick, anyway sounds like we got off on a bad foot of sorts here, you are the only one i have run into that still uses that type of way to run a cleaner in years, if your pressure line could be converted to suction what would you think about that? anyway just trying to help you with this problem
each of the 3 lines to the right of the spa line, should have each have there own two way valve,not the 3 way valve configuration that exists now ideally you would like to have the ability to shut off or turn on or regulate distribution of suction to maximize the particular device that may require maximum suction like the skimmer if a lot of leafs blown into the pool ,so you would look at the 3 lines and know to turn the pool drain off,and turn the other line off (not certain what it controls) and leaving the skimmer wide open to skim the top of the water surface,by the way is there a wier door in skimmer throat ? if not you would be wise to install one, the little door that flops around in the throat alot of skimmers have missing or broken doors and the difference is like night aNd day when it has the door as far as how effective it is at skimming the surface of debris. normally i would have looked at the pool to see a cleaner hooked up but i cant do that here,this is why i have been asking all these questions this has become my pet project so, its not like i give my knowledge of swimming pools away to everyone, and sit on the computer all day, i registered on this site the other day out of boredom everything i have said or illistrated during our correspondance so far has the advantage of being accurate info that is spot on, my approach to swimming pool repair also has the sting of having to enlighten homeowners as to the true state of disrepair or improper work done by other unqualified butchers that are trying to learn this business by messing up the pools of unsuspecting trusting homeowners that placed there confidence in there ability to solve there problem, before my involvement i dont have a crystal ball here, while your cleaner will work without the booster pump, it is doing so by turning the pool pump into its booster pump, how much distribution of water does the cleaner require? does the valve have to bypass the filter completely to provide enough pressure to run the cleaner, or is that why you have the two speed 2h.p. monster for a filter pump hi speed for cleaner pressure? lo speed for filtraion and heating spa? its unusual to say the least to have a 2 h.p.2 speed when you have a jet pump thats 2 hp im curious with what your understanding is for the reason to have it that way, or am i on the right track about the cleaner having to do with the set up this way a more common h.p. for the filter motor when a jet pump exist would be a single speed 1 h.p. the pool at my home has a spa, but i dont have the jet pump, it shares a 1.5 h.p. motor for both which im not crazy about , overkill for circulation purposes which 90% of motor run time is used for, i have thought about 2speed or variable speed upgrade for cost savings on electric bill, so what way do you utilize the 2 speed for? just curious without having the ability to be there to see for myself as far as the cleaner line is concerned,some of my remodel projects on older pools that had 1.5 inch cleaner pressure lines, i would convert to a dedicated suction line, and be able to run a suction cleaner,clever little trick, anyway sounds like we got off on a bad foot of sorts here, you are the only one i have run into that still uses that type of way to run a cleaner in years, if your pressure line could be converted to suction what would you think about that? anyway just trying to help you with this problem
The problem I came here with was originally a heater problem, that I found out through my own troubleshooting and record keeping at the suggestion of another member, was specifically a suction side air leak in a specific pipe. I still haven't seen where you have explained why, other than just because you say so, that the jandy three way configuration I have has a major fault that will cause me any problems, or what exactly I'm missing out on by not replacing it with 2 way valves (I can already turn off, turn on, or regulate all of those lines with the valve setup the way I have it today, so your explanation of what I would want in that case, I already have...If it's not immediately apparent how I have the ability to do this, I can show you pictures of the valve settings where I can isolate any pipe or a combination of any pipe).
Yes, both skimmers have weir doors attached.
No offense, but so far, all I've seen you do is point at things you don't understand the function of and call them wrong and assert that your experience trumps all...at work we have a saying for old guys who are stuck in their ways and aren't open to other things, "just because you've been doing it longer, doesn't mean you've been doing it better."...The hose bib on the return of the pump, the Jandy three ways, the pressure side cleaner not needing a booster pump are all examples where you have called out without just asking about it...before you say something is wrong or inaccurate, maybe you should just ask about it without passing judgment until you know enough to make that judgment call stick. Not to mention all of these things having zero to do with the initial or root cause of the problem I started this thread about (unless the Jandy valve at the pump is what is pulling air, which is unlikely at this point since many other things pull into that valve). I'm happy to discuss the setup of my pool with you, but I consider this thread solved when I realized that the lack of flow is what was causing my problems---I opened a separate thread to talk about potentially DIY'ing a suction side leak, and the mods in their vast wisdom determined that it was best to combine the two threads because I thought about them in the same breath, but that's another story.
my cleaner is MADE to work without a booster pump...My pool came with 2hp pumps, as do many of the pools down here in South Louisiana that I have seen. That pump filters water, powers the polaris, and powers a spa overflow into the pool, pushing to 10 return jets at once.
The low speed does continue to filter the pool, though in reality I could run the pump much less time and not even run it on low if I wanted to due to the size and flow abilities of the pump...I am able to recycle the water just with the high cycle, but the pool timer came to me dialed in as it is, and I haven't adjusted those settings much even though I know I can drastically shorten the cycles. I use the pump on high when I heat just to move the water faster through the spa. The heater does heat the water faster when the pump is on high vs low. The 2hp jet pump is just overkill for the sake of overkill (a couple, both doctors, owned the house and built the pool, I have no doubt they overbuilt some things, the pumps being one of them)...a smaller pump would more than suffice for that, and frankly I could plumb this in such a way that the single two speed pump does that job and remove the secondary jet pump altogether. But, it came with the pool, so no need to toss it out since it's already plumbed and wired.
In my case, like I said, the pumps came with the pool when we bought the house...if I were to replace the pumps, I'd go with variable speed so I could have finer control over the rpms and really squeeze out the electrical savings. The point of a 2 speed pump is indeed to have a shorter high speed run to do the initial cycle of pool capcacity through the filter (and run a pressure side cleaner if you want), then swap to low to continue to filter but at a much lower electrical cost.
I've had pool servicers come to my home thinking that was a suction side cleaner and offer to convert it to pressure side, which they cite as much better...it's all in what is popular where you are I suppose, but I think both devices have their place. For what it's worth, I wouldn't want a suction side cleaner where I live, as I fill a 5 gallon bucket a week with debris from either the skimmers, nets, or the polaris bag, and it is usually large (oak leaves/twigs) debris that I would not want being potentially pulled into anywhere via suction. I love the pressure side cleaner, as do all of the neighbors I've talked to that use them, and if I were to get rid of the pressure cleaner, I'd go with a robot (probably a dolphin).
Pool Clown
In The Industry
Getting back to the original problem...
Gilbee,
I think that maybe you could run the system in spa mode (no heat, no jets) for a period of time equivalent to the time it takes to heat the spa, plus the time it takes till the heater is needed again. When you first start this procedure, note the water level in the spa. When you are at the end of this "test" note the water level again (checking for a leak). Within this time, confirm that the pump is primed and moving water. If it quits moving water at some point, note the time that it ran before this occurred. If your pump runs a certain amount of time, then looses prime, you have some sort of leak in the suction line. Sometimes with suction line leaks, when the plumbing is idle, water leaks out of the plumbing into the surrounding area. When the plumbing comes under suction again, that water is drawn in through the leak. Once all the water has been drawn in from the surrounding area, air begins to be drawn in, killing the prime of the pump. The time it takes to do this would be different for every case/pool. This may be why it runs ok for a period of time, then looses prime.
Gilbee,
I think that maybe you could run the system in spa mode (no heat, no jets) for a period of time equivalent to the time it takes to heat the spa, plus the time it takes till the heater is needed again. When you first start this procedure, note the water level in the spa. When you are at the end of this "test" note the water level again (checking for a leak). Within this time, confirm that the pump is primed and moving water. If it quits moving water at some point, note the time that it ran before this occurred. If your pump runs a certain amount of time, then looses prime, you have some sort of leak in the suction line. Sometimes with suction line leaks, when the plumbing is idle, water leaks out of the plumbing into the surrounding area. When the plumbing comes under suction again, that water is drawn in through the leak. Once all the water has been drawn in from the surrounding area, air begins to be drawn in, killing the prime of the pump. The time it takes to do this would be different for every case/pool. This may be why it runs ok for a period of time, then looses prime.
Yup---that is indeed what I think is going on...I definitely have a few options to resolve it, and I've got a leak probe guy coming on Tuesday to see if he can pinpoint where it is, and if so we can determine whether I'll fix or abandon the drain in favor of the other drain. Thanks.
let me just say that here in phoenix we have pools everywhere and the last time i worked on a pool that had a pressure cleaner that shared the filter pump, 1988 maybe, they were called jandy porpoise, or jandy vac, etc. i have never seen in 25 years of doing pool repairs anything more useless,worthless,or ineffective than this which at the time was the industry standard, and quite common to see on many pools, until suction cleaner technology began to revolutionize the industry, instantly rendering pressure cleaner technology obsolete especially as it applies to the shared system like yours and within a few years they were gone in the phoenix area, i really cant think of any other pool related innovations that has had the positive impact on the way the public looked at pool ownership than suction technology.the fact you make the system seem so common place and relevant is mind blowing to me, because in phoenix it would be like some artifact that was dug up, and put on display somewhere, like a model t, im so intrigued now,i plan on seeing how many of those polaris cleaners,if any are available at my wholesalers. i had know way of knowing much about anything beyond what i can see in your pics, but if what you describe regarding prime loss when spa side is isolated is pretty fast, at this point it cant hurt to see if there is some kind of water loss by performing a simple static leak test, first if you have any automatic fill valve that maintains pool water level turn it off(auto fills are very common on pools here) disregard that step if you maintain water level with hose manually, etc. next place a piece of tape to mark where the pool water level is currently at and place a piece at the spa where its level is, plan on leaving pump off for a day or two, hopefully rain is not forcast either, then watch the level where tape is,alot of times suction lines will not show water leaks sitting idle during static test because it is the vacuum in the line when pump is on that sucks air through any crack that introduces air but the nature of suction lines are not to leak water, only air you might get lucky due to the severity in how loss of prime occurs so fast, indicating a leak in suction line that will be big enough to actually leak water, if thats the case you could notice a difference in water level on spa tape that is lower, but then you have to also look at tape on pool if the tape on spa overnight lets say is an inch below tape and the pool is still at the same level of tape then you may have determined that it may indeed be leaking afterall but if both levels are still the same it doesnt mean the line is not leaking,just that it wont leak when sitting , anyway you get the idea i will check back but if you havent responded i will stick a fork in it and consider it done good luck then
Let me help you:
http://www.lesliespool.com/polaris-f1-360-pressure-side-pool-cleaner/f1.htm?suggest=polaris%2520360
https://www.pinchapenny.com/product/polaris-360-inground-pool-cleaner
There's a leslies in Paradise Valley that even has one in stock so you can gaze upon the inferiority in person instead of just looking at the pictures of them.
By the way, I looked up the Jandy Ray Vac/Porpoise that you speak of, it's absolutely nothing like what I have. I can roll down to pretty much any pool store in a 50 mile radius here and pick up a 360 in stock, so they must be popular enough for the stores to keep them on hand.
Since I already have someone coming Tuesday, I'm gonna let them pinpoint the leak and I'll post back up here when I know what the situation is for closure.
Pool Clown
In The Industry
Even back then (when your pool was built), pool builders were aware of the chances of entrapment. Those two drains you have that supply the filter and the jet pump could very well be tied together in the wall/floor. You will find out soon enough when your leak detector pressure tests the spa suction...
That just made me think of something. Did you do the test i was suggesting? Running the pump without the jet pump running? If your pump runs without a problem with the jet pump off, i may know why.
That just made me think of something. Did you do the test i was suggesting? Running the pump without the jet pump running? If your pump runs without a problem with the jet pump off, i may know why.
In this case, I know they are not tied together, as they are plumbed separately, and the pump that pulls from one drain and pushes the wall jets does not take on air like the other one that pulls into the filter does. I've been told that while uncommon, that is a lucky break for me should I need to abandon the current drain that feeds the filter from the spa. The main drains in my pool are tied together as you describe though.
I normally heat the water with the jet pump off, simply because with how close the two drains are, they pull against each other and intensify the loss of prime effect.Even though it's not the case, what were you thinking? Just curious.
Pool Clown
In The Industry
If the suction lines were tied together, and the jet pump motor was of greater HP than the filter, there could have been a scenario where one of the main drain lines were obscured enough to where the greater HP would rob all the available water, and actually cause the lesser HP to loose prime. While the hypothesis is very thin, i have seen it...
...once.
...once.
Ok, so there's closure now---you weren't that far off. So, even the leak detection guy thought the drains were separate initially when looking at the plumbing, but after taking the covers off, the truth was plain as day. They are tied together, but the good news is the pressure test showed that there wasn't a leak (or at least not one that was measurable) in the plumbing of those drains. The jet pump will rob water from the main pump, but that's not a huge concern in our case because we don't run them at the same time ever.
What we did find was one of the jandy three way valves was leaking at the stem; fixing this leak and adding some lube to the pump basket o-ring made a million percent improvement I never saw the valve leak when looking this over before, and I knew the pump squirted when the pump gets turned off, but figured that since it tightens up under suction this was a non-issue. I also would not have ever thought to add lube to that o-ring, since it specifically says it's factory lubricated and not to lubricate it. There is still a tiny bit of air in the basket, but even after 2 hours of just cycling the spa water, the pump did not lose prime. The suggestion the leak guy made was to replace the check valves in the jet pump side of things, though not especially necessary. I think this is the best I'm going to get, and the tech said that this is more of a design flaw (the pumps and drains tied together), and that most newer spas he sees with jet pumps do indeed have isolated drains for the jet pumps.
At this point, problem solved! Thanks for the input everyone.
Glad you were able to find the issue. Sometimes it takes another set of eyes actually looking at the equipment to find the issue.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!