New pool, problems with solar

[alfred]

Got our new pool completed last month, June 9, 2015. Started the planning and permit process in January. My old pool was built in the 60's and everything was manual. Had a timer to turn the pump on and off. Now this new one has all the latest auto stuff. Having a problem with my solar, there are air bubbles come out while the system is in the solar mode. The builder said that this was normal that the start up when it switches over to solar has to push out the air in the solar panels and that woulf take a few minutes. I have a little bubbles come out after hours of running the solar. I have tried running the pump a verious speeds and still cannot get rid of the bubbles.
I took off the vac valve and found it clogged with pvc shavings and put on a new air relief value that you use in yard irrigation and it worked, but still bubbles. I cleaned out the supplied vac valve, which was made out of brass and tightened up all the connections on the panels and hope that take care of it. The builder said that it is normal and that was before I sent them a picture with all the stuff in the valve. Is this situation normal.

 

[Chuckiechan]

How big are the bubbles? And do you get any bubbles at all with the solar off?

Your SWG produces small bubbles of hydrogen when running.

You also may have a tiny suction leak at the pre filter before the pump, among other things. Be sure to use silicon grease on the O ring.

I suppose you could cap off the vacuum relief valves for a leak test.

 

[alfred]

The bubbles are huge and constant at higher speeds. Let me give you more background on my pool. I have a liciensed pool consultant who we paid a fee to design and build this pool. We go quotes from contractors and no real contracts or speifications on any of the work that was to be done. We revised the pool design several times. Went in for a permit as owner/builder with a square pool design. We changed it to an oval shape and on the first inspection it failed because the shape was not what was submitted. That caused some delays. We then changed the coping from poured in place to premade, and that was another delay of 2-3 weeks. When we did get the coping installed the edges were cut badly and a lot of the pieces were chipped and also the colors were not all the same. The contractor toll me that was his standard and that he would change a few out. We also wanted a tile edging at the edge of each step and at the edge of the knee deep platform. The plaster people told us that they would not do it and the tile setters should have set those in place. There was very little communication between anyone. We had to settle for a 3x3 tile spaced every foot or so apart. The consulatant said we show;ld have told him. The contractor who laid out the waterline tile knew what we wanted and said that the plaster people would do that for us. Boy, we are learning a lot of lessons from this experience.The contractor that dug the pool and put in the steel was alsogoin to set the equipment. All the contractors wanted their money as soon as they completed their work. There were no retention money or recourse in case there waere problems. The equipment was purchased from the consultant and we also purchased the solar installed from the consultant. As things turned out our deck was half re-done because of poor craftmanship and the second try was just as bad as the first. So we witheld about a third of his quoted price. This is also the same contractor that did the tile.
So as you see we have had a lot of problems. No one has showed me how to use all the equipment or have taken the time out to make sure that everything was installed right. I am learning the hard way.

Now to the current problem. There is a spa connected to the pool and the pool plumbing. When the connected the air blower at high speed on the VS pump there are air bubbles. So yesterday I cut and capped the air blower 2" PVC and the bubbles stopped. But the air bubbles were still coming out when I turned on the solar. I replaced the now cleaned vac.value and tested again and still the air bubbles continue to come out. I did some furthe looking on the internet and found an article that said the water should enter these panels from the bottom and travel up the panel. This morning I took apart one of the 2" pvc pipes before it entered the panels and turned on the solar. the water was entering the panels from the top and the vac release valve is also located at the top. The installer installed it backwards, I think. Left a call to the person I purchased this from to have it fixed ASAP.
Stay tuned and we will see how long it takes for him to correct the situation.

 

[Chuckiechan]

I'll be checking in to see how it's resolved.

BTW, did you use a C-53 (pool builder) general contractor, or did you hire your own subs? If you hired a GC, it's on him, and feel free to hold up payments. Your hole card is an arbitration hearing pending a complaint for what amounts to incompetence.

There is a section on page two for handling problems:
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/GuidesAndPublications/BeforeSwimmingPoolConstruction.pdf

 

[alfred]

The consultant was a c-53 and the one who dug the pool and set up the equipment has a c-53.
The consultant was called early Monday morning and played telephone tag four hours. At 11am we left the house to go someplace and ran into him so I got out of our car and got into his truck and told him the problem. He said that the way he has alway run the water in the solar panels and it says so in the instructions. I asked him for the brand name and Down the road got out of his vehicle and back into ours. He also said that he would send someone over to look at the problem. I called the person he was sending and he will come over today, Tuesday at 9 am. I checked on the internet and no company selling 4x10 panels tells you to put the water in form the top of the panel. Stay tuned.
On the contract side, the way this guy does business is tha the contractos submit a quote to either him or me reference my job and when they have finished their part they expect payment, COD. At this point I need to rely on that they will fix my problem now and any that pop up in the future. Also noone has given me any warrantees on the pool build except for Pentair which is their standard warrantee that you have to file for. If push come to shove do I have legal recourse if we only did this with a PO agreement?

 

[pooldv]

Water should definitely be fed into the panels from the bottom on one side and out of the panels from the top of the opposite side. He is wrong on that.

 

[alfred]

The repair person showed up around 11, two hours late but he did text saying he was running late. He cut one of the riser pipes to see which way the water was flowing and then corrected the pipes at the equipment pad to make the flow right. He also put in a check valve on the riser pipe he cut, which is now the return line. Waited for the glue to dry some and tested the system. He crancked up the rpms to 3000 and all the bubbles disappeared. After he left I set the system in normal operation with the solar rpm set at 2200 rpm and the bubbles came back. I called him and he said I had to ramp up the rpms and the bubbles would disappear. I made the adjustment and the bubbles disappeared. Does this mean whenever I want the solar on my pump will have to run at 3000 rpm. Thats a lot of watts to get the one or 2 degree difference in water temperature.

Now I will run it for the next 3 hours and see if the water feels any warmer. Its only a 6 panel system using 4x10 panels.I think I am under powered and oversold and not going to get what the salesman was pitching. Stay tuned ........

Does anyone know if your solar kicks in if you can ramp up the pump for 5-10 minutes and then have it slow down once the air is pumped out, providing you do not have any leaks in the system.

 

[pooldv]

No, it doesn't necessarily have run at the higher RPM. I believe that solar controllers run at a higher RPM for a while to purge the air and prime them and then switch the run speed. I run my solar panels at 1950 rpm, which draws 550 watts.

 

[alfred]

Jumped in the pool at 4 pm after the solar has been working for 4-5 hours. It a hot day and the sun was out all day the air temp was about low 90's. The water was nice and the water coming into from the solar felt even warmer. So the system does work and now I need to learn how to manage and use it better.
Also had a Pentair warrantee rep came over to check out my SWC and he found nothing wrong with it. Sometimes it would go to two light only and he said that was normal when the water flow was not right the cell would turn off. We programmed the spillway from the spa to turn on at 2200rpm to rotate the water, because during the filter process there is no circulation in the spa. This way there would be fresh water with higher levels of chlorine coming into it.
Since he was here I asked him if my system could ramp up when solar turned on and then ramp down after the air was purged out. He said that the pump only did that at initial start up. I commented that in this day and age it should be part of the programming ability of these new control boxes. In the reply above it is mentioned that a solar controller would do this job. I will look into that and see how much extra money for that feature.

I would like to have my system produce chlorine and use the solar at the same time and need to find the right rpm to do that without getting all those bubbles. If you have experience with this please comment.

What is the purpose of the vac valve on the highest part of the solar panel system. I thought it was used to let the air bleed out at start out, but if the system pushes all that air out into the pool at start up its function must be different than that. So when the solar is off and there is no pressure in the panels the valve opens and lets air in so the water can drain. Can someone in the know comment about this.

Mahalo to those providing comments so I can learn faster about my new pool. My test kit came in yesterday, Taylor K2005c. before that I was using a HDx 5 way test kit.

I also ordered another switch actuator to put on the valve, suction from the bottom drains and the vacumn port. When it comes in I would like to set it up so when in the cleaning mode the valve can be switched full to the vacuum port and when it switches back to filter it can be moved back to the drains. I do not understand why the pool builder did not do it this way. I am used to hand vacumning a pool.

 

[pooldv]

The vacuum release valve is there to allow the panels to drain down so the panels can empty and not collapse due to vacuum pressure. It lets air in, not out. Water pressure closes it. My solar panels blow lots of air into the pool at start up. My Solartouch ramps my Intelliflo VSpump to 1950 rpm when solar turns on, which draws 550 watts. My normal run speed is 1100 rpm and this produces chlorine and skims. Chlorine is produced when solar is running as well sometimes. My IC40 is on its own time clock.

I believe the Solartouch has a solar prime feature. I'm not sure and don't need it because once it blows the air out of the panels at the start it runs fine. Now that yours is plumbed correctly you might not need it either.

Solar controllers to check out for Pentair would be the Suntouch and the Solartouch. Suntouch will also control your Intellichlor and a heater. Pentair has the manuals available on their website to download and read.

Just looked at your equipment list, I think the Easytouch should be able to control solar. I would check the manual on that first.

 

[alfred]

The easy touch does control the solar, but there is no high spee to flush out the air unless I can do that then the system first comes on in the morning. The temperature difference is set at 6 degrees so if the roof and the pool water does not have that difference solar shuts down and I assume the water drains out. When the sun comes out again there and heats up the roof sensor it will turn back on. In real practice it seems so hot here I do not think a few clouds will turn off the solar. Over time I should be able to figure out how it works.

My pool with out the solar is about 80-84 at this time of year. I am doing the solar to test to see if the pool builder built everything right and it all works the way it should or that I was sold on.

I am going to experiment with different times and setting to see what works at what speeds.

 

[alfred]

This morning I tried the solar at 3000 rpm, just small bubbles. Reduced speed to 2900 rpm and still only small bubbles. Took the spped down to 2600 rpm and a lot of bubbles came back. So set the speed back up to 3000 rpm. Turned the solar function off today and just ran the filter function at 1800 rpm and chlorine was being produced. The temperature go up to 107 with clear skys, so I think I got some solar heat without runnung the solar.

Someone said that once you purged out all the air that the solar would be able to run at a lower speed. I assume that the system must be pulling in some air someplace. How can I test for this. I have a two story house and the panels are up there. The panels are connected together with raidiator typ hose and ss clamps. when running there no water leaking out anywhere on the roof or any of the exposed piping. Or am I expecting too much from this equipment.
Any ideas..........

 

[pooldv]

The air is pulled into the panels through the vacuum release valve. There is a small hole in the 3way solar valve that allows the solar panels to drain the water, this leaves the solar panels full of air. When solar turn back on it blows the air out into the pool returns.

I'm sure the panels being on the second story will require more pump speed. Mine are not that high. Sounds like you have the same panels I have. There are pics in my build thread in my sig.

Yes, I am sure you are picking up heat from the sun. I am running my panels at night right now to cool my pool.

 

[diverminh]

I experienced something very similar when I installed my solar panel. Initially my VRV was installed on the high side oppoxite of the return. If you use the picture below, the VRV was placed on the top left. In order to not get a lot of bubbles, I had to run the pump as a very high speed. I moved the VRV to the bottom side opposite of the input (bottom right), and I was able to run the pump at a much lower speed. Looking back, I wondering if I had installed it on the bottom left side, would I be able to run it at an even slower speed. I even debated on moving the VRV to the equipment pad area. I am too lazy to change it out right now.

 

[alfred]

I wil try moving the VRV to the lower panel and see what happens. I also read that on someone else's tread the other day.

I heated my spa with my solar yesterday. Manually changed all my valves to send the heated solar water to the spa and spa drain was opened and sent to the solar panels. Place the control panel in equipment mode. Started this a t 3:30 with a beginning water temperture of 90 degree and at 5:15 went out to check and the spa temperature was 104 degrees. Did not jump in to enjoy it. the outside temperture was hot all day and at that time the outside air was about 99 degrees. Put the equipment back to auto and went back in the a/c house.

I did run the pump at 2750 rpm after a 3100 start up.

 

[alfred]

Same problem new facts. After reading othe treads with simuliar problems and also you folks that replied it was mentioned that the solar syatem should drain out when everything is shut down. I went out to my riser pipes and knocked and shook them and both feel as if there is water still in them. However when the system starts up it blows out a lot of air. I have a jandy three way valve that diverts the water to the solar. does that valve have a pin hole to drain the roof top solar or is there a special model number that has this function?

Does my solar system need to be drained when not in use? to prevent sun/heat damage.

With the easy touch there is a freeze protection, so I am told by the consulation who sold me this stuff, that when the sensor get to a certain temperture the system is supposed to turn on and circulate the water so the freeze does not hurt any of the equipment. Anyone know about this and how do I check if it will work If and when The freeze comes this winter.

 

[pooldv]

3way solar valves have a pinhole, regular 3way valves don't. When the valve closes you will be able to hear the water drain down from the panels.

The Easytouch freeze protection won't, or shouldn't, turn on solar when it turns on freeze protection. With the panels drained there is no reason to circulate water through them. I did not have a solar valve the first winter and when I restarted solar in spring there was water shooting off the roof from several places. Luckily it was all from the rubber connections squeezing off and not from any panel damage. I actually had a solar valve and didn't install it because I a clown. So, I installed that.

You can drill a small hole in the gate in your valve or buy an official solar valve insert. There are a few reasons why solar panels need to drain when not in use. Weight on the roof, freeze issues, heat build up, vacuum pressure of gravity trying pull the water out of the panels can cause panels or plumbing to collapse internally.

 

[diverminh]

As Pooldv mentioned, the regular 3 way valves do not have a pin hole. It was easy to remove just the valve assembly and drill in a 1/8" hole.

Here is the thing that bothers me. With out the pinhole, the water would not be able to empty out of the feed line. However, I would have still expected your return line to be drained. Am I missing something?

 

[alfred]

My pool builber made some changes that he thought was improvements. When he switched the water flow to make the water enter the panels from the bottom, he first cut one riser and turned on the solar to see which way the water was flowing. As it ended up after the switch it is now the return line and he put a check valve at the cut.
I checked the risers this morning and above the check valve was empty and the imput to the solar was full. So I think it says that I do not have a solar jandy valve because the water did ont drain out that side. After taking off the check valve cover water was coming from the bottom of the pipe. My pool system was on filter. Th guy that sold me the solar had a 3 way jandy valve in that order. the installer could have gotton that mixed up with the other valves when he installed the plumbing. The installer was not the brightest bulb in the box. He made a lot of mistakesand would not admit to any.

Is there a different model number on the housing if I am to look for the solar valve?

 

[alfred]

I added a 1/8 hole in my 3 way valve and now the water drains out of the supply line. The return line drains out and is at the level of the check valve which is about 1.5 ' off the ground.

I also took the other suggestion and moved the VCV to the lower corner on the panels and that has allowed me to run the panels at 2700 rpm and not get large bubbles.

I also opened and inspected all my 3 way valves, 4 in all, and none had a hole in the gate, so i drilled one in the one used to divert the water to the solar.

Today I am going to cap off the VRV and see what happens. In diverminh's post he mentiones that he was going to mount the VRC lower but did not do it at this time.

I guess I am going to cap it and run the system. If I still get air bubbles it must indicate an air leak coming from someplace. The supplied VRV is made of brass and I wonder how much water pressure is needed to keep it closed. At roof top height what might be the water pressure.

It takes pump pressure to move the water up to the highest point in the panels, but when the water starts to head back down hill gravity should help send it back down and if it can travel faster than what the pump is supplying the vrv should open and allow some air in. Does that make sense. That's why I am going to run this little test. Will post the results.